Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 07-06-2008, 01:19 AM

Acharya S asks if Ancient Tablet Evidence of the Jesus Myth?

SLD · 07-06-2008, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Acharya S asks if Ancient Tablet Evidence of the Jesus Myth?

I'm not so sure I would go as far as she does in that it creates a blueprint for a later completely mythological figure. It might as equally conceivably allow a historical Jesus to take a page from recent Jewish messianic movements and graft onto it.

I suppose though we will never know for sure, but in some sense this seems to auger a bit stronger for a historical Jesus who merely uses what is already around him in terms of messianic thought to create a movement. A failed movement ultimately.

SLD

PhilosopherJay · 07-06-2008, 12:59 PM

Hi JoeDad,

I like your term "Messianic drift."

I do not have time to look for my old arguments at the moment. However, it is easy enough to see the importance that the name "Simon" plays in the gospel narratives. Note these references in Mark:

Quote:

Mark
1.16And passing along by the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew the brother of Simon

1.29And immediately he left the synagogue, and entered the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John. 1.30Now Simon's mother-in-law lay sick with a fever, and immediately they told him of her.

1.35And in the morning, a great while before day, he rose and went out to a lonely place, and there he prayed. 1.36And Simon and those who were with him pursued him,

3.14And he appointed twelve, to be with him, and to be sent out to preach 3.15and have authority to cast out demons: 3.16Simon whom he surnamed Peter; 3.17James the son of Zeb'edee and John the brother of James, whom he surnamed Bo-anerges, that is, sons of thunder; 3.18Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Cananaean, 3.19and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

6.3Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?"

14.3And while he was at Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he sat at table, a woman came with an alabaster flask of ointment of pure nard, very costly, and she broke the flask and poured it over his head.

14.37And he came and found them sleeping, and he said to Peter, "Simon, are you asleep? Could you not watch one hour?

15.21And they compelled a passer-by, Simon of Cyrene, who was coming in from the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to carry his cross.

The name "Simon" refers to 1) the first and most important disciple of Jesus, 2) The son of the first person that Jesus heals, 3) Two of the twelve disciples -- Simon Peter and Simon the Cananaean, 4) one of four brothers of Jesus, 5) the person (Simon the Leper) who owns the house where Jesus is annointed, 6) a betrayer of Jesus, 7) the man who carries the Jesus' cross (Simon of Cyrene).

Luke adds a couple of other Simon roles:

Quote:

Luke
6.13 And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles; 6.14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 6.15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot

24.33 And they rose that same hour and returned to Jerusalem; and they found the eleven gathered together and those who were with them, 24.34 who said, "The Lord has risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon!"

8) The second Simon disciple of Jesus is now called "the Zealot," 9) The person who first sees Jesus alive on the road to Emmaeus is named Simon.

John adds more:

Quote:

John
1.42 He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him, and said, "So you are Simon the son of John?

6.71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot,
13.2 And during supper, when the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son,

13.26 Jesus answered, "It is he to whom I shall give this morsel when I have dipped it." So when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot.

18.10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's slave and cut off his right ear. The slave's name was Malchus.

21.15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs." 21.16 A second time he said to him, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep." 21.17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?"

10) Simon is now the son of John. (perhaps a reference to John the prophet/Baptist), 11) Simon is the name of the father of the traitor (Simon Iscariot), 12) Simon is the name of the only man who defends Jesus at his arrest. 13) Simon, son of John, is asked three times if he loves Jesus, the only character that Jesus questions that way.

We should also not forget the anti-Christ character, "Simon" Magus who appears in other works of the period.

It seems that whenever something important happens to Jesus, a Simon is connected in some way.

The movement of symbols is a complicated process. People often honor their parents by taking a symbol from them (their name) and reusing it, giving their parent's name to their children.

When people censor a text, they often feel guilty and leave a trace of their censorship. In this case, perhaps the writers were forced to take events that happened to someone named Simon in the original text and replace his name with the name "Jesus." To make up for it, they reused the name Simon as often as possible, using the name for the first and best disciple, the brother, the defender, the traitor, the carrier of the cross, the first to see Jesus resurrected and finally even the passionate lover of Jesus (although John also displaces Mary here too in later edits)

The three names that come up over and over again in the gospel stories in all sorts of unexpected ways are Simon, Mary and John; thereby, we may suppose that the original text involved a love triangle involving John, his son/disciple Simon and Mary. The editing of the name Jesus onto the lead characters John and Simon resulted in a kind of symbolic displacement in the narrative, with the name "Simon" ending up flying all over the place.

One has to look at the story in terms of certain semiological and narratological theories to see this more clearly.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by joedad

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi All,

Yes, the article is very interesting to me, especially this:

I proposed in my book and some posts several years ago that the crucified man was probably named Simon. It seemed to me that the name "Simon" had been displaced from the center of the original crucifixion story and placed around the edges, almost as clues to the original story buried underneath countless revisions.

Well, if this stone tablet doesn’t get debunked, we can dub your observation Messianic drift - like continental Drift.

I’m curious, how did you come to your observation?

Cesc · 07-06-2008, 01:26 PM

The apocryphal Acts of Peter and Paul relates that Simon Magus had once appeared to raise himself from the dead three days after he had been killed.

Cesc · 07-06-2008, 01:58 PM

PhilosopherJay, your Messianic Drift thesis gains some weight in the light of Simon Magus's importance to a major part of the gnostic movement, imo. To them Simon was the divine Light made flesh. His female companion Helen's name means "torch" in Greek, I believe. Simon and the ex-prostitute Helen seems to have been an early rival myth or something or even perhaps an equivalent to Jesus and Mary Magdalene. There were all sorts of gnostic myth cycles going around with Simon as personification of the Light of the World, the saving gnosis, and it could very well be that Simon Magus was purposely defamed in Acts of the Apostles by factions who were trying to establish the Church and combat the major Simon gnostic factions.

Toto · 07-06-2008, 02:18 PM

James Tabor's blog give this link for downloading Prof Israel Knohl's paper: http://www.hartman.org.il/SHInews_Vi...Article_Id=124

Quote:

Hazon Gabriel confirms my thesis that the belief in a slain and resurrected messiah existed prior to the messianic activity of Jesus. The publication of this text is extraordinarily important. It is a discovery that calls for a complete reassessment of all previous scholarship on the subject of messianism, Jewish and Christian alike.

squiz · 07-06-2008, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

But of course 'sensational' archaeological inscriptions have been forged ever since the renaissance first created a market for them. So we should be wary.

Good advice.

andrewcriddle · 07-06-2008, 04:02 PM

One issue with Knohl's reconstruction is that it requires him to take "prince of the princes" as being a title of a human messiah.

However "prince of the princes" comes (as Knohl agrees in his discussion) from Daniel 8:25 where it seems (according to most commentators) to refer to a divine/angelic figure. There appears to be little or no evidence of it being used as a Jewish title for a messianic figure.

Andrew Criddle

joedad · 07-06-2008, 04:56 PM

Philosopher Jay,

Thanks,

I honestly expect this artifact to be exposed as a fraud. It’s just fits too well into explaining Christian religious origins. It’s pretty close to being a smoking gun in explaining away what seems to be an abrupt appearance of gMark.

andrewcriddle · 07-07-2008, 11:46 AM

There is a interesting discussion of the Gabriel tablet here http://ralphriver.blogspot.com/2008/...f-gabriel.html

Andrew Criddle

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-06-2008, 01:19 AM	#11
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Acharya S asks if Ancient Tablet Evidence of the Jesus Myth?

07-06-2008, 01:26 PM	#14
Cesc Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 322	The apocryphal Acts of Peter and Paul relates that Simon Magus had once appeared to raise himself from the dead three days after he had been killed.

07-06-2008, 01:58 PM	#15
Cesc Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 322	PhilosopherJay, your Messianic Drift thesis gains some weight in the light of Simon Magus's importance to a major part of the gnostic movement, imo. To them Simon was the divine Light made flesh. His female companion Helen's name means "torch" in Greek, I believe. Simon and the ex-prostitute Helen seems to have been an early rival myth or something or even perhaps an equivalent to Jesus and Mary Magdalene. There were all sorts of gnostic myth cycles going around with Simon as personification of the Light of the World, the saving gnosis, and it could very well be that Simon Magus was purposely defamed in Acts of the Apostles by factions who were trying to establish the Church and combat the major Simon gnostic factions.

07-06-2008, 04:02 PM	#18
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	One issue with Knohl's reconstruction is that it requires him to take "prince of the princes" as being a title of a human messiah. However "prince of the princes" comes (as Knohl agrees in his discussion) from Daniel 8:25 where it seems (according to most commentators) to refer to a divine/angelic figure. There appears to be little or no evidence of it being used as a Jewish title for a messianic figure. Andrew Criddle

07-06-2008, 04:56 PM	#19
joedad Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: PA USA Posts: 5,039	Philosopher Jay, Thanks, I honestly expect this artifact to be exposed as a fraud. It’s just fits too well into explaining Christian religious origins. It’s pretty close to being a smoking gun in explaining away what seems to be an abrupt appearance of gMark.

07-07-2008, 11:46 AM	#20
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	There is a interesting discussion of the Gabriel tablet here http://ralphriver.blogspot.com/2008/...f-gabriel.html Andrew Criddle

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.