Clivedurdle

http://ompage.net/ChristKrishna/krishna.htm

spin

You need to know something about the field to know who the experts are. That people have been dealing with Conybeare is indicative of the fact that no-one knows what the fuck they are talking about and have no idea who the experts are in the field, who are there to set the standard and who one is supposed to react against if one wants to get to know the field.

You probably know that I think the main writers of the unique materials among the DSS were Sadducees, those with connections to the book of Ezekiel, that shining exemplar of the 364-day calendar.

stephan huller

I wasn't aware of the calendar's connection with the Book of Ezekiel, but the connection with the Sadducees is obvious (both in terms of the DSS and the person of Ezekiel himself). I think there is a real disconnect between people at this forum and 'scholarship.' There is this ridiculous notion that scholars are so biased that they are part of a conspiracy of sorts to 'suppress' certain ideas from gaining currency. Maybe the problem is that people can't count Biblical scholars as friends.

The one thing you might be able to accuse scholars of lacking is imagination. But the reality is that most scholarship is quite reasonable and is carried out by people smarter than most people at this forum. I mean we only need to think in terms of our lives. Robert and I play a musical instrument. Imagine for a moment if it were our job to be a musician. We practice - maybe even 'study' different genres of music - and play with other musicians both in a live and practice setting, day in and day out.

Even the most mediocre talent would be improved by a situation like this. Now let's be honest with ourselves that those people who feel they have some sort of 'affinity' for some aspect of scholars can't be all be deluded. Stephen Carlson was a lawyer and as an amateur wrote a book I disagreed with. But it was obvious he had talent for scholarship and now, with the right training from Duke University, has moved to Sweden to become a professional scholar after writing his paper on Galatians. I'd have to be delusional to suppose that I am more of an expert on the existing text of Galatians than him.

Similarly you can follow another guy who comes to this forum sometimes - Alex Poulos. He used to be a computer programmer and decided he had an affinity for these things. He has a blog http://mapoulos.wordpress.com/ where he documents his interest and attempts to translate various documents from Greek. My point is that people at this forum need to become familiar with 'scholarship' as real people who focus on studying problems in early Christianity as well as related fields.

As you know there are often dozens of people in every generation working on related problems, related questions and they are in contact with scholars from previous generations and we are making progress understanding the ancient world. The idea that scholarship hasn't moved on from the 19th century is just silly.

One more thing specifically about this 364 day calendar. I can remember when I was much younger calculating the fifty day jubilee calendar on a piece of paper. I was so thrilled with the parallels with the DSS that I actually called up Charlesworth on the phone at his office on my cell and he called back!

We had a long conversation (or at least so it seemed) about his trips to Ethiopia. I think it was then that I knew or had it reconfirmed in my mind that almost any reasonable hypothesis has had something written about it by someone in the field. No one is so intellectually gifted that he can just 'come up with something' brilliant with only passing knowledge of that subject. You have to get down and dirty with all that has been written. That's why we have universities.

Sheshbazzar

You got one thing right stephan. 'down and dirty' with all that has been written.

stephan huller

Perhaps I should have used the word 'intimate' but I didn't want to get off on a tangent. Yet just look at the way you operate. You have mastered the mountainman skill of scanning through things and picking out something trivial, out of context to avoid the import of what is being said. I hope you appreciate how arrogant it is to assume that you don't need to read about the 364 day calendar. How can you honestly consider the text not to be Jewish when it agrees with the oldest Jewish material?

Sheshbazzar

Yes it would make sense to discuss the Therapeuts contributions to healing and caring.
The theraputae of Aesculapius are noteworthy for their involvement in the development of medicine, surgery techniques, and public health care in the ancient world.

The 'Theraputae' of Alexandria's claim to fame however, as reported in Philo's VC, consisted of these 'Theraputae' totally reclusing themselves from society six days out of every week, involving themselves all of the daylight hours of each day in fasting, study of religion, and total solitude peforming private religious rigamarole.
While the rest of the cults main labor existed as a suppor network to provide for the mantainence of the cults Therapudae leaders.

And when these 'Theraputae did briefly emerge from their cubbyholes ater dark to the accolades of their cult followers, more religious rituals would ensue until they went back into their hermit holes.

These Theraputae Philo describes were NOT public doctors out and about busy attending the sick, mending broken limbs, performing operations, or bulding public hospitals.
And their cult attendants themselves were not the Theraputae, only attendants.

Philo's 'Theraputae' of Alexandria were quite a bit different in their social involvments and conduct than the medically oriented public health care theraputae of ancient Greece.
It was religious cult dedicated to it own mantanence.

stephan huller

Another example. When I was living in Florida one of my best friends was a scholar named Rory Boid, someone who specializes in things related to Samaritanism but who was familiar with most of the related material in the DSS and rabbinic sources. I can say with certainty that above all else his 'motivation' was to find out the truth about the Israelite tradition. Indeed one of the reasons he was so fascinated with the Dositheans was because he felt that he was getting close to the truth about the earliest, most primitive expression of the Hebrew religion.

From our numerous conversations together, I didn't simply get the sense that there was a great 'plurality' of expressions of 'Judaism' (an unfortunate term) but that the calendar was key to make sense of the origins of Judaism. For instance there is an important distinction between the secular and religious year (commencing on the seven and first months). But also the specific interest in the number seven as it relates to the Jubilee (not only 'jubilee year' but also fiftieth day = 49 + 1 with respect to Shavuot and a number of other primitive fifty day periods in the most primitive calendars). Even the Christian interest in the eighth day and the ogdoad is related to this concept.

The idea that the Therapeutae are not Jewish is hopeless out of touch with the most primitive expressions of Jewish religion in our existing sources. Boid noted that among the early Samaritan sects was a group called the 'seveners.' The name of the Sebuaeans is ABSOLUTELY CERTAINLY connected with the number seven. First, we have the name in an ARAMAIC Jewish text from the time of the Ge’onim, when it is known that there were still Sebuaeans. The reference is Sefer Halachot Pesukot. Second, the transcription by Abu ‘l-Fath. confirms this. Third, the confused account by Epiphanius shows he had been told there was a connection with the no. seven.

One can even make the argument that if the name Sabaoth is connected with the no. seven, it must be connected with Shavu’ot, Pentecost, the occasion of the revelation of the first and second Torah. Moses first became King on that occasion, because he then had a congregation to rule.(see the first verses of Deuteronomy 33, and the phrase vayehi melech be-Yisra’el, meaning “and then (after the revelation of the Torah) there was a King in Israel”. Also Samaritan and Jewish tradition). The Christian Church theoretically came into existence on the second occasion.

Again my point is that there is nothing so quintessentially Jewish as the interest in the number seven. The fact that the Therapeutae had a calendar which reflected this interest, were cited with approval by a prominent Jewish authority alongside other obvious Jewish features makes the identification of the group as some sort of primitive Jewish community related to the Essenes as Philo himself infers, almost certain.

Sheshbazzar

Arrogant? You overlook that I keep a 364 day calendar, as I have for the last 40 years (40 years Gregorian calendar that is)
I was studying these matters before you were even born.
But now that you are off into the Book of Ezekiel and have such a great knowledge and understanding of the subjects of ancient methods of measurements of time,
perhaps you could tell us how many yad and tophach were in the qaneh of Ezekiel 40:5 and how many etsba'oth were in its length, and how it compared to the common cubit and its measuring reed, and the cubit of the Sanctuary and its measuring reed?

You Do have fixed STANDARDS of measure do you not? Lev 19:35 & Deut 25:15

Then you must understand perfectly how these measures are related to the measure of the goings forth of hours, days, weeks, months, and years?

Really 'up' on your ancient foreign language and mathematical skills are you?
Perfectly understand what the name 'shesh batzer' signifies?

spin

Well, there you go! Ya gotta learn some time. If you're really interested, here's a test for you: using the 364-day calendar, how many days specified in Ezekiel (numbered day of numbered month) occur on the Shabbat? And how many on "Monday"? (But then it's not just Ezekiel, though it is richest in such dates.)

stephan huller

It also might be a useful exercise for those who struggle with primary sources to take a second look at Epiphanius's account of the Sebuaeans. http://books.google.com/books?id=IKy...uaeans&f=false

Clearly he is using a Samaritan account from a community which kept the new year on the first of the first (the beginning of the religious year). They criticized the Sebuaeans for adopting the practices of the Jews (perhaps under Babylonian influence) of holding the New Year on the first of the seventh. But now as Epiphanius reports the material there is an obvious confusion and unfamiliarity with Jewish and Samaritan practices. What must originally have been a rhetorical attack against the community (i.e. 'why don't you ...' or perhaps exaggeration 'they must celebrate ...' ) at face value. Most of the accounts of heresy develop in this manner. The Church Father who takes up the information is usually not as interested in faithfully explaining the information as presenting 'shocking examples' of how much diversity there was outside of the Church (i.e. 'they can't even agree with one another').

The underlying point however is that we can piece together who the Sebuaeans were by bringing other witnesses to the original material. The same is true with any ancient group for whom we have only partial or fragmentary information.