John A. Broussard

You are making a serious error here.

Anyone who believes in the bible, without questioning it in any way, deserves great credit in god's eyes.

Anyone who believes in the bible even though that person knows there are many contradictions, repeated fables and plain out-and-out falsehoods gets even more credit in god's eyes.

So god has given us a holy scripture which is really a test of our faith.

As Tertullian said, "I believe because it is absurd."

So, you see, god's lack of sense makes a lot of sense.

Joan of Bark

John, who's faith are we dealing with here? My argument with the Biblical believers is strictly on the level of what they believe is God's word. They all claim that if we skeptics read the Bible, we will know the truth. If it's all about faith, what the heck do we need a Bible for?

John A. Broussard

I think they are arguing that we have to have faith that the bible is god's word because the god they have faith in says so right there in the bible that the bible is god's word.

There may be some circularity there, but that's part of having faith.

Steven Avery

Hi John, I can understand your unwillingness to be concerned with the context of Tertullian's statement, as Roger Pearse documents on the following four pages....

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http://www.tertullian.org/works/de_carne_christi.htm
Tertullian is best known by a famous misquotation from ch. 5, verse 4: 'credo quia absurdum' -- 'I believe because it is absurd.' The usual implication is that Tertullian believed in Christianity because it was absurd. Tertullian thought nothing of the kind: see the quotes page for a passage on reason from De Paenitentia 1,2. See also the articles by Moffat and Sider, online below.

http://www.tertullian.org/quotes.htm
Quotations.

http://www.tertullian.org/articles/sider_credo.htm
CLASSICAL WORLD 73 (APRIL-MAY 1980), pp.417-9.
CREDO QUIA ABSURDUM? - Ronald Sider

http://www.tertullian.org/articles/moffat_aristotle.htm
Journal of Theological Studies 17 (1916) pp. 170-1.
ARISTOTLE AND TERTULLIAN.

==================================================

However, you should at least not use the same misquote that was pointed out to you on this very forum one month ago, when you accepted the correction.
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=143969

Tis bad form to repeat a corrected error.

Shalom,
Steven Avery
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic

Toto

It is bad form to link to a 4 page thread with no more specific indication.

In this post John A. Broussard said:

It is claimed that what Tertullian is actually saying is

(emph added)

But calling this a misquotation - as if Tertullian had never said anything like that - seems a bit of a stretch.

Steven Avery

Well you agreed and called it a misquotation ---

"Thanks for the correction. The original is often misquoted, as I did."

Now you simply repeat the misquotation that you claimed had been corrected.
Puh..leeze. Enuf.

Shalom,
Steven Avery
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic

Steven Avery

John agreed. And John repeated. Now Toto for some reason has stepped in apparently saying John didn't misquote, even though John agreed he did. Puh..leeze.

pharoah

This is an equivocation. Jake asked you to name one error-free ancient manuscript. Saying that you would be hard put to find any errors is not the same as saying they are error-free. Or implyng that the error-free manuscripts are long gone doesn't help either.

Nice try though.

Johnny Skeptic

The "Word of God" is merely the result of the personal preferences of "orthodox" believers who had their way regarding the formation of the New Testament canon. Many people who opposed orthodox beliefs were persecuted and/or killed by orthodox Christians, and their writings were destroyed. The truth is by no means proven by the lack of obvious errors. Can you find any errors in Deism? The main issue is reasonably proving truth, not reasonably proving errors. No, I can't disprove a man's claim that he saw a pig sprout wings and fly. Can you? Well of course you can't. On the other hand, if a man owned a flying pig, he could easily show me the pig. Similarly, if God exists, and if he has supernatural powers, he could easily show up and prove those claims. However, God could never prove that he created the universe because some alien beings might also be able to convert energy into matter. Therefore, God's enforcement of rules of his own choosing do not have any more legitimacy than any other powerful being enforcing rules of his own choosing. May I ask how you would be able to recognize Jesus if he returned to earth?

Steven Avery

Where did I ever claim that I would produce an extant error-free manuscript ? And I probably wouldn't recognize one if it was right in front of my face. Ancient manuscripts are written in languages that I barely know diddles about.

However, all the TR manuscripts are excellent, beyond that my understanding of the inspired and preserved scriptures has never claimed what you or Jake asked of me, so your question on this seems a bit unusual

Shalom,
Steven Avery
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic