Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dog-on · 06-29-2006, 04:51 AM

Alf, do you know of any surviving writings which clearly refer to a Christ other than JC?

jjramsey · 06-29-2006, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alf

"christ" is a greek term and just means "annointed one" and was used to imply reverence towards people or deities - real or fictional. As such just about anyone at that time could be referring to his favorite deity or a person whom he considered annointed to be "christ".

Do you have references for this? Peter Kirby actually directly contradicts this:

Quote:

The simple fact is, there is no good evidence that anyone, anywhere was ever referred to as "Christ," with the exception of course of Jesus himself. One searches the extant Jewish literature in vain to find some example of a messianic pretender who had actually been called "Christ" by anyone. Jesus was unique in being called "Christ," and so it is not surprising that this term is only used when identifying Jesus.

From http://earlychristianwritings.com/testimonium.html

dog-on · 06-29-2006, 07:01 AM

Maybe Mr. Kirby shouldn't really be searching "extant Jewish literature" for evidence of such an example. Maybe extant Roman literature would be more productive.

darstec · 06-29-2006, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Could I trouble you to clarify that? You seem to be saying that he could have been born believing in the Christ. Surely you didn't mean that.

I think Paul's writing was second century. By that time there were other savior mythologies his parents could have taught him or he learned on his own accord. A christ, an oiled one, might not have been as unique as we might imply today. There could well have been a few cults that oiled themselves for some type of mystery rite. At first Christian could well just meant oiled ones and in hindsight we think any reference to Christian refers to the followers of Jesus of Nazareth.

dog-on · 06-29-2006, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by darstec

At first Christian could well just meant oiled ones and in hindsight we think any reference to Christian refers to the followers of Jesus of Nazareth.

Thus, if we could find an early reference to a non-Jesus-Christ, we could begin to prove, among other things, that Paul could have been, in fact, not Jewish.

darstec · 06-29-2006, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Alf, do you know of any surviving writings which clearly refer to a Christ other than JC?

Some time back I posted an article on the use of christos/messiah in both the Old and New Testaments. Would reference to King David do, or King Darius? It was a way of signifying a person or even objects dedication to god. Even bread and rocks were anointed as well as some people in Acts.

dog-on · 06-29-2006, 07:14 AM

darstec, I am aware of the OT stuff, but a good pre-Christian Roman or Greek one would be much more helpful. Especially if a cult formed around it.

Alf · 06-29-2006, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjramsey

Do you have references for this? Peter Kirby actually directly contradicts this:

This sounds strange. First off if you look among jewish literature you would not expect to find "christ" but "messiah" and we have several messiah-wanna-be's documented. Josephus mentioned at least 3 and none of them can be identified with Jesus and we believe there were numerous others in addition to the three that Josephus mentioned.

No, if you wanted to find "christ" you would probably rather look into greek writings. The problem with this is of course that quite early on christians participated in a major book burning of everything that could be considered heresy. I am pretty sure that if a christ were mentioned that could not be identified with Jesus, any mentioning of him would be removed or the text burned.

So I am not so sure we can find surviving texts today proving that there was "christs" around before Jesus. However, it seems like an obvious assumption to assume. "The annointed one" is a title, not a name, and it is a title of reverence. It means you somehow worship or have particular reverence for the person or figure you refer to as "christ". That it should not be used to refer to anyone except Jesus appear to me to be rather strange.

To make an similar situation. Consider the title "Der Fuhrer" which Hitler adopted to himself. I guess most people associated "Fuhrer" with Hitler today but prior to HItler the word was used in various contexts. A bus driver is "Fuhrer"! To claim that no person except HItler was referred to as "Fuhrer" is ridiculous and the "Christ" title for Jesus is as Jesus only having such a title is similarly ridiculous.

True, no other person has ever used the title to mean the exact same thing as Hitler did - meaning "absolute dictator and tyrant" but that is also analogous to the christ/jesus case where even though there might have been other people or fictional individuals referred to as "christ" none other was referred to as such with a meaning like the gospel Jesus - i.e. crucified, gospel described, etc the whole shebang.

So yeah, we do not have clear cut evidence for it but I find the idea that the title was only used to refer to Jesus to be ridiculous. Especially considering that in Jewish culture there was a bunch of peopel referred to as Messiah which is the jewish equivalent and again we find that other people has been referrred to as "annointed one". It was something they did to kings so just about any king who has been anointed as king can properly be referred to as "Messiah" - in particular David which if I am not mistaken we actually do have evidence even though I cannot point to it at the moment that David was at times referred to as "Messiah" in jewish culture.

Claiming that Jesus is the only christ is a little like claiming that George Bush is the only president and that all presidents before and after was something other than presidents. It simply doesn't make sense to me.

Alf

S.C.Carlson · 06-29-2006, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alf

No, if you wanted to find "christ" you would probably rather look into greek writings. The problem with this is of course that quite early on christians participated in a major book burning of everything that could be considered heresy.

Do you have any details about this "major book burning" that was "quite early on"?

Stephen Carlson

aa5874 · 06-29-2006, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjramsey

Not necessarily. If Jesus staged miracles, then yes, he would be a fraud. However, if the miracles were legends from his followers, then it would hardly follow that Jesus himself was a fraud. One plausible scenario is that Jesus "healed" people by way of the placebo effect, and that for the most part, his followers remembered the hits and forgot the misses (with Mark 6:1-6 being an exception to this). These "miracles" spawned the rumors that led to the stories that we see in the NT.

Can a blind person see with the 'placebo effect'. In Matthew12:22-23 KJV, it says, 'Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
And all the people were amazed, and said, Is this not the son of David?
Is this the 'placebo effect'. I need some extra-biblical information of the 'placebo effect'. Why hasn't the 'placebo effect' been used today for the cure of being blind, deaf, dumb or dead.

I have been asking for extra-biblical evidence for the historicity of Jesus, not one shred yet. Only speculation after speculation. When will it end?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

06-29-2006, 04:51 AM	#361
dog-on Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 3,397	Alf, do you know of any surviving writings which clearly refer to a Christ other than JC?

06-29-2006, 07:01 AM	#363
dog-on Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 3,397	Maybe Mr. Kirby shouldn't really be searching "extant Jewish literature" for evidence of such an example. Maybe extant Roman literature would be more productive.

06-29-2006, 07:14 AM	#367
dog-on Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 3,397	darstec, I am aware of the OT stuff, but a good pre-Christian Roman or Greek one would be much more helpful. Especially if a cult formed around it.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.