Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 12-04-2012, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

.....or supposing that "Irenaeus" did not write anything in the second century at all, and that his text was written in the 4th century and projected back to the second century, a mere 30 years after one "Justin" named none of 4 gospels or anything about a "Paul" or epistles...

You should also suppose that your suppositions are wrong. Your suppositions are rather myopic. Suppose all sort of things to be on the "safe side".

Have you supposed that Irenaeus wrote the Talmud??

Please, why do you suppose Irenaeus wrote in the 4th century when the author claimed that Jesus suffered at about the age of 50 under Claudius??

Writings attributed to 4th century writers claimed Jesus was crucified under Pilate.

Eusebius claimed the ministry of Jesus ennded about 4 years after the Baptism by John or about 18-19 th year of the reign of Tiberius.

Church History

Quote:

1. It was in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius, according to the evangelist, and in the fourth year of the governorship of Pontius Pilate, while Herod and Lysanias and Philip were ruling the rest of Judea, that our Saviour and Lord, Jesus the Christ of God, being about thirty years of age, came to John for baptism and began the promulgation of the Gospel.

2. The Divine Scripture says, moreover, that he passed the entire time of his ministry under the high priests Annas and Caiaphas, showing that in the time which belonged to the priesthood of those two men the whole period of his teaching was completed. Since he began his work during the high priesthood of Annas and taught until Caiaphas held the office, the entire time does not comprise quite four years....

Your supposition that Irenaeus wrote in the 4th century is baseless speculation.

Irenaeus did NOT know when Pilate was governor.

In gMark, there is no statement made about the time when Pilate was governor. There is no statement in gMark and gMatthew that Pilate was governor under Tiberius.

Irenaeus claimed Pilate was a governor under Claudius.

Irenaeus' Demonstration of Apostolic Preaching

Quote:

For Herod the king of the Jews and Pontius Pilate, the governor of Claudius Caesar, [248] came together and condemned Him to be crucified....

Parts of "Against Heresies" were composed before the 4th century.

4th century Church writers knew that it was claimed Jesus was crucified when Tiberius was Emperor, Pilate was governor and Caiaphas was High Priest.

"Against Heresies" is a Massive Forgery. Earlier writings of Irenaeus were manipulated.

Irenaeus did NOT know of gLuke, gJohn, Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline letters when he claimed Jesus was crucified under Claudius and that Jesus suffered at about 50 years.

stephan huller · 12-04-2012, 02:57 PM

Quote:

and that his text was written in the 4th century and projected back to the second century,

This makes no sense. It's like finding a picture of John Travolta sexually assaulting his masseuse and then claiming it was a set up by his own people to further his own career. The Church would not promote the idea that Irenaeus - the earliest spokesman for the four canonical gospels - used anything but the four canonical gospels. This is why your neo-mountainman theory is so ridiculous. To claim that the four gospels were 'invented' in the fourth century requires there to be no contradictions from earlier witnesses. I have heard every stupid excuse for the existence of these clear contradictions of the mountainman premise from Pete himself so I doubt very much you as his apprentice with come up with anything more plausible. Please give up on this idiotic theory.

Duvduv · 12-04-2012, 04:46 PM

Well, if it wasn't an emerging empire-church that had the means, motive and opportunity to do this, then who did? Which "earlier witnesses" did the Church allow to CONTRADICT Mr. Irenaeus of "Lyon"? Was there an earlier witness who claimed an official acceptance of 3 gospels? Of 7 gospels? Of a writer who wrote 19 epistles including the Epistle to the Japanese and Epistle to the Scots?

Whoever wrote in the name of Irenaeus had a SET of texts already offered for public consumption. He didn't "contradict" earlier "witnesses."

Anyway, I doubt you would want to get into a shouting match over who should give up which theory.

The fact is that there is NO EVIDENCE that the book written by "Irenaeus" about "heretics" was written in the second century before there was an authority that had the MEANS, MOTIVE and OPPORTUNITY to enforce a declaration of who is a "heretic" on everyone else for its own benefit.

But if you want to retain faith and loyalty to the official line of the apologists about their writers, be my guest.

sotto voce · 12-04-2012, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

empire-church

:hysterical:

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12-04-2012, 04:46 PM	#13
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	Well, if it wasn't an emerging empire-church that had the means, motive and opportunity to do this, then who did? Which "earlier witnesses" did the Church allow to CONTRADICT Mr. Irenaeus of "Lyon"? Was there an earlier witness who claimed an official acceptance of 3 gospels? Of 7 gospels? Of a writer who wrote 19 epistles including the Epistle to the Japanese and Epistle to the Scots? Whoever wrote in the name of Irenaeus had a SET of texts already offered for public consumption. He didn't "contradict" earlier "witnesses." Anyway, I doubt you would want to get into a shouting match over who should give up which theory. The fact is that there is NO EVIDENCE that the book written by "Irenaeus" about "heretics" was written in the second century before there was an authority that had the MEANS, MOTIVE and OPPORTUNITY to enforce a declaration of who is a "heretic" on everyone else for its own benefit. But if you want to retain faith and loyalty to the official line of the apologists about their writers, be my guest.

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