Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Diogenes the Cynic · 07-27-2005, 02:34 PM

Revelation says a third of the stars will fall from the sky. That implies more than a meteorite or two. It says a third of the stars in the sky will be gone.

Viti · 07-27-2005, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Revelation says a third of the stars will fall from the sky. That implies more than a meteorite or two. It says a third of the stars in the sky will be gone.

I did not know that. Could you fetch us the exact verse?

If what Diogenes states here is correct, Jenn, I don't think there is any way to read that literally or excuse it as John trying to describe things he had never seen.

Diogenes the Cynic · 07-27-2005, 02:41 PM

One more question, will the Beast of Revelation litreally be a giant, seven-headed monster who rises out of the sea with a harlot on his back, or is that a metaphor? If it's a metaphor, where does the Bible identify it as such?

Diogenes the Cynic · 07-27-2005, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyShea

I did not know that. Could you fetch us the exact verse?

If what Diogenes states here is correct, Jenn, I don't think there is any way to read that literally or excuse it as John trying to describe things he had never seen.

Revelation 8:12. It's right after the wormwood verse.

And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

braces_for_impact · 07-27-2005, 02:48 PM

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

It's pretty obvious John thought stars were pretty small.

1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

Small enough to hold in your hand, apparently.

Jenn6162 · 07-27-2005, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

I'm not looking to laugh at you, I was just trying to show you that an absolutely literal reading of the Bible is not logically possible. And I don't mean that in the sense that God can't perform miracles, I mean that some of the claims are not literally possible even as miracles. The sun cannot "stop" if it isn't moving to begin with. The idea of stars falling to earth shows an archaic view of the physical universe which no longer makes sense. It is not possible for stars to "fall" because there is no "down." They can't land on the earth because they're much, much larger than the earth (if the sun were a hollow ball, it could hold more than a million planet earths), because their gravity is much, much stronger than the earth's gravity (The gravity of the sun is 28 times stronger than earth. If you weigh 100 lbs on earth, you'd weigh 2800 lbs on the sun) and because a star would incinerate the earth long before it could ever make contact.

You've already admitted that the horses and locusts might be metaphors.

There are other examples of things that would seem to be difficult to read literally. Will Jesus appear in the sky? Which part of the sky. The earth is round, so how could Jesus ever be visible to the entire world? No matter where he appears, most of the world wouldn't be able to see him?

Where was Jesus going when he ascended into the sky? Outer space? Is that where heaven is? Even if Jesus was going the speed of light, he still wouldn't even be out of the Milky Way galaxy.

Once again, I'm not raising these issues to mock you, but just to try to get you to think about what being a Biblical literalist really means. I'd also like to remind you that you don't have to be a Biblical literalist to be a committed Christian. many Christians interpret some parts of the bible as telling spiritual or symbolic truths rather than literal ones. Genesis says that the sun wasn't created until the third day. A day, by definition, is one rotation of the earth on its axis relative to the sun. If there is no sun, then what were the firts tow "days?" They can't logically be understood as literal days, so either it has to be a metaphor or a mistake. Do you see what I mean? Don't be afraid to open your mind to other possible ways to read the Bible. Remember, Jesus taught in parables. Whether there was really a good Samaritan was completely beside the point. It's the message of the story that matters, not its historicity.

Wow I must have come across as a fragile little flower. I didn't mean to, I was only kidding. I know humor is hard to convey on a MB. I explained above in my response to Braces, why I do not believe that I am saying John was using metaphors. I believe he was trying to describe what he was seeing, with nothing to compare it to. Thanks for the crash course in astronomy and physics, see I am learning lots on this board. To answer I would say that if God could create the earth, heaven, and everything contained within I don't think it is a stretch that He could alter those laws. And if he did, I believe you would see much of what is described in Revelation. Most of your questions above I really cannot answer. I don't question it. I am aware that being a Bible literalist is not a condition of being a committed Christian, and I would go further to say that most Christians do not believe in a literal interpretation. Then again most Christians don't pick up their Bibles outside of church. As to the comment about the earth being created on the third day, I don't have to believe it is an actual third day to be a Bible literalist. (copied and pasted cause I'm lazy)

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day

So I take the Bible literally in all instances, but I look at the Bible as a whole, and consider the context and level of understanding of the person writing.

I also agree that it is the message that matters. So I don't consider the hows or whys all that important. It is fun to discuss though. Thanks for your response Diogenes, that was a lot to type for me to understand the basics of where you were coming from.

Again, don't walk on eggshells with me. You won't hurt my feelings if you are blunt with me, and if you do, oh well. I can take it. I want to argue, um I mean debate.

Diogenes the Cynic · 07-27-2005, 02:55 PM

Don't forget the Matthew passage where Jesus said, "the stars will fall from the heavens." I would think that Jesus would have known what a star is if he was god incarnate and all that.

Jenn6162 · 07-27-2005, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

One more question, will the Beast of Revelation litreally be a giant, seven-headed monster who rises out of the sea with a harlot on his back, or is that a metaphor? If it's a metaphor, where does the Bible identify it as such?

I was waiting for that part to come up. I have an answer for that, and it does not include seven headed monsters. I gotta deal with dinner and the baby, but will be back to tackle that shortly. That is a metaphor, but I believe that is what John was shown.

Jenn6162 · 07-27-2005, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Don't forget the Matthew passage where Jesus said, "the stars will fall from the heavens." I would think that Jesus would have known what a star is if he was god incarnate and all that.

I agree.

hum · 07-27-2005, 03:47 PM

Hi Jenn

....this is probably way off topic... but would like to hear about your experiences with demons and the answered prayers that compelled you to believe.
Perhaps you could start a thread in GRD ?

hum

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-27-2005, 02:34 PM	#111
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	Revelation says a third of the stars will fall from the sky. That implies more than a meteorite or two. It says a third of the stars in the sky will be gone.

07-27-2005, 02:41 PM	#113
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	One more question, will the Beast of Revelation litreally be a giant, seven-headed monster who rises out of the sea with a harlot on his back, or is that a metaphor? If it's a metaphor, where does the Bible identify it as such?

07-27-2005, 02:48 PM	#115
braces_for_impact Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In a nondescript, black helicopter. Posts: 6,637	Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. It's pretty obvious John thought stars were pretty small. 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. Small enough to hold in your hand, apparently.

07-27-2005, 02:55 PM	#117
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	Don't forget the Matthew passage where Jesus said, "the stars will fall from the heavens." I would think that Jesus would have known what a star is if he was god incarnate and all that.

07-27-2005, 03:47 PM	#120
hum Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Australia Posts: 53	Hi Jenn ....this is probably way off topic... but would like to hear about your experiences with demons and the answered prayers that compelled you to believe. Perhaps you could start a thread in GRD ? hum

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.