Freethought & Rationalism Archive

FathomFFI · 06-26-2008, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thentian

Quote:

Originally Posted by FathomFFI

Perhaps he never did? All he would know is that someone called Christ was professing himself to be a king. That's enough for Pilate to execute him. It be like ...

"So you think you're a king, eh? Somebody get a rope! Somebody named "Christ" thinks he's the King of the Jews!"

lol

But who told Pilate that this person was "Christ"? I don't think Jesus ever referred to himself that way, and I doubt his enemies would. (And the disciples weren't present at the trial.) Did anyone at that time refer to Jesus as "Christ"?

It doesn't really say, but someone had to tell him because we have Pilate showing knowledge of it:

Mat 27:17 Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said to them, Whom do you desire that I release to you? Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?

Luk 23:2 And they began to accuse Him, (to Pilate) saying, We have found this one perverting the nation and forbidding them to give tribute to Caesar, saying himself to be a king, Christ.

With the NT as a record, we can safely say that there's no doubt that Jesus was regarded as the Christ by a great many Jews.

aa5874 · 06-26-2008, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

In the case of Marcion, we know Jesus was his Christ, so it wouldn't follow that Marcion's followers would refer to Marcion as Christ (although I suppose they might have, but let's not wander too far into the weeds).

It's different in the case of Simon Magus. He was the object of worship for his followers, and not merely a prophet/apostle/evangelist.

First, do you know for certain that Simon was called Christ? Or are you merely assuming that a claim to some kind of godhood automatically means a claim to be Christ?

Second, are you aware of the connection between Simon Magus and the Christ who suffered in Judea? Irenaeus, Against Heresies 1.23.3:

For, since the angels ruled the world ill, because each one of them coveted the principal power for himself, [Simon] had come to amend matters, and had descended, transfigured, and assimilated to powers and principalities and angels, so that he might appear among men to be a man, while yet he was not a man, and that thus he was thought to have suffered in Judea, when he had not suffered.

Simon suffering, or seeming to suffer, in Judea? I care not how you reconstruct this scenario, but it is clearly not independent of the story of Christ Jesus suffering in Judea. I put it to you that this is a better explanation of why the Simonians were called Christians; their leader had made a claim that linked him inextricably, not with just any Christ figure, but specifically with the Christ figure who had suffered (or seemed to suffer) in Judea. The Christ in Christian, both for the Simonians and for the Marcionites, is the Christ who reportedly suffered in Judea.

Ben.

Simon Magus was not called a God because he [Simon] was crucified. Simon was called a God because it was claimed he did "mighty acts of magic".

Simon Magus, according to Justin, lived during the time of Cladius Caesar,no later than 54 CE, but the Jesus stories, based on the NT, were written during or sometime after Titus, 70 CE or later.

And further there are no extra-apologetic sources to show that Simon Magus ever heard of the Jesus stories before 54 CE. And the word "Christ" did not originate with Jesus at all, the Jews asked John the Baptist if he was Christ, it is likely they could have asked many persons before. Some might have answered positively.

Perhaps the Jesus stories are partially based on Simon Magus' "mighty acts of magic."

Toto · 06-26-2008, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

But it's a rookie mistake easily recognized as such.

The Migne version of Saint Augustine, Homilies on John 7.1, has Simon Magnus. Either Augustine is responsible for this or Migne is; and neither of these gentlemen was a rookie.

..

That reference is to Simon magnus; but if you search, there are two other references to Simon magus and Simon Magus

Page 1434
... el Simon magus : Actus ...

Page 1502
... 40) ; Simon Magus ...

06-26-2008, 06:59 PM

Hiya,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Koine Greek was the "lingua franca" (there's a little joke in there, isn't there?)

Yah :-)

Speaking in English using an Italian phrase about how Greek was the "Frankish language" for the Romans.

Love it.

Iasion

thentian · 06-26-2008, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FathomFFI

It doesn't really say, but someone had to tell him because we have Pilate showing knowledge of it:

Mat 27:17 Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said to them, Whom do you desire that I release to you? Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?

Luk 23:2 And they began to accuse Him, (to Pilate) saying, We have found this one perverting the nation and forbidding them to give tribute to Caesar, saying himself to be a king, Christ.

With the NT as a record, we can safely say that there's no doubt that Jesus was regarded as the Christ by a great many Jews.

Okay, so (provided we take those passages as evidence) Pilate did have reason to refer to Jesus as "Christus". However, we again see Pilate knowing the actual name, using "Jesus who is called Christ". Wouldn't you say it is plausible, then, that an official report from him would also contain Jesus' actual name? Maybe "Jesus of Nazareth (Jesus the Nazarene?), who is called Christ" ?

FathomFFI · 06-26-2008, 07:13 PM

Quote:

The repetition of the 4 gospel writers that Jesus was crucified does NOT confirm a single thing about Jesus, the offspring of the Holy Ghost, except the repetition.

But the repetition is from MORE than just the 4 gospel writers in the NT. It extends into the letters of Paul, Peter, John, James, and Jude.

FathomFFI · 06-26-2008, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thentian

Quote:

Originally Posted by FathomFFI

It doesn't really say, but someone had to tell him because we have Pilate showing knowledge of it:

Mat 27:17 Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said to them, Whom do you desire that I release to you? Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?

Luk 23:2 And they began to accuse Him, (to Pilate) saying, We have found this one perverting the nation and forbidding them to give tribute to Caesar, saying himself to be a king, Christ.

With the NT as a record, we can safely say that there's no doubt that Jesus was regarded as the Christ by a great many Jews.

Okay, so (provided we take those passages as evidence) Pilate did have reason to refer to Jesus as "Christus". However, we again see Pilate knowing the actual name, using "Jesus who is called Christ". Wouldn't you say it is plausible, then, that an official report from him would also contain Jesus' actual name? Maybe "Jesus of Nazareth (Jesus the Nazarene?), who is called Christ" ?

Yes, it certainly is plausible.

But let me show you how to view the Tacitus text so that perhaps you will understand why Tacitus did not use the name of Jesus in his writing:

Quote:

Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus

You see, the text really doesn't focus on Christus. The whole section is all about how Nero was being blamed for starting the great fire of Rome, and about how he deflected the blame to the Christians.

The only reason Christus was mentioned with the name of "Christus"- instead of Jesus- was to identify the Christians with their god, Christus. It was to show where the name of "Christians" comes from. Tacitus could not show that relationship if he had used the name of Jesus.

Ben C Smith · 06-26-2008, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

The Migne version of Saint Augustine, Homilies on John 7.1, has Simon Magnus. Either Augustine is responsible for this or Migne is; and neither of these gentlemen was a rookie.

..

That reference is to Simon magnus; but if you search, there are two other references to Simon magus and Simon Magus

Page 1434
... el Simon magus : Actus ...

Page 1502
... 40) ; Simon Magus ...

Yes, I even saw a Simon Magus on the very same page, only a few lines up.

The fact remains that a standard reference contains Simon Magnus. There is no one on this board who gets more annoyed by typos, poor grammar, and misspellings than I do (especially my own). But I am hoping the discussion can proceed beyond simple typos into issues of a more substantial nature.

For example, I for one am not very impressed with the argument that Tacitus is relying on official records, and I imagine pursuing that line of inquiry would be a better use of time than following up on a mistake that is pretty common and understandable.

Just for the record, I am still something of a fan of the idea, which has been discussed on this forum before, that Tacitus is here relying on Josephus. (Say, is it a coincidence that one of the comments on that weblog is signed Fathom??)

Ben.

Solitary Man · 06-26-2008, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FathomFFI

The only reason Christus was mentioned with the name of "Christus"- instead of Jesus- was to identify the Christians with their god, Christus. It was to show where the name of Christians comes from. Tacitus could not show that relationship if he had used the name of Jesus.

Funny passage that in the Latin. Far more textual problems than usually assumed, and so many who don't know Latin or Greek phonetics usually do worse with it. Sigh.

Solitary Man · 06-26-2008, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Just for the record, I am still something of a fan of the idea, which has been discussed on this forum before, that Tacitus is here relying on Josephus. (Say, is it a coincidence that one of the comments on that weblog is signed Fathom??)

I'll sign on with Ben and Stephen for the Tacitus/Josephus connexion.

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