Peter Kirby

The attitude of that post is a part of me as much as anything else is. I am not repudiating it.

Layman

You really misread me here Peter. I was responding to atheists at Debunking Christianity who seemed to me to be dismissing me because of my Christian bias or association with other apologists. I appealed to you as someone the atheist likely would listen to; not because you were so heavily biased yourself but because you were someone whom he could not claim had my bias.

It would be like if you were debating a Christian suspicious of your atheistic beliefs about whether Mark 16:9-20 was original to Mark and said, "Look, Chris Price--a Christian apologist--believes it was added by a later author." I wouldn't have taken that as an insult, but as you trying to show the person that the result can be reached by people of different perspectives, including the debate proponent's own.

Until now I thought you were committed to the study of history regardless of your views on Christianity or atheism or whatever. In fact, I have informed you in person and in emails that I could tell you really loved history over polemics. But having seen you gone from an atheist who I respected as pursuing what you believed was truth and who seemed skeptical of the Jesus Myth to a Catholic to a Deist who favors the Jesus Myth and is showing much more overt antagonism towards traditional Christians than before in a matter of weeks, I honestly do not know what to make of your journey at present.

Ted Hoffman

I just went through that thread. Peter, you say you are a disciple of Christ - who is Christ? and when was his Christological moment?
You realize that we have at least four Christological moments:
There is adoptionist Christology (Markan) - whose Christological moment was at the time of baptism, conception Christology (Matthean), Resurrection Christology (Pauline) and Obedience/naming Christology (also Pauline).
About the last one, Mack writes regarding Philippians 2:8-11: “according to the Christ myth, Jesus became the Christ by virtue of his obedience unto death. Here in the Christ hymn, Jesus is the incarnation of a divine figure who possessed “equality with God” already at the very beginning of the drama and had every opportunity to be lord simply by “taking” possession of his Kingdom. His glory however, is that he did not “grasp” that opportunity...but took the form of a slave. Because of this, God exalted him to an even higher lordship.” Burton L. Mack, Who Wrote the New Testament? The Making of the Christian Myth (1995), p.92.

Which Christ Peter? I am sure you know that pre-existence Christology is not compatible with adoptionist and conception Christologies.

Ted Hoffman

I share these sentiments Peter and I hope you dont take offense but it really seems like a Roller coaster right now. You are really swinging and sometimes I get the feeling that this is a tumultous phase in your worldview after which things will percolate and settle down. These are really huge shifts and whereas I admit my ignorance in the workings of your mind, and what you have been contemplating for the last several years (a decade it seems), what I have seen interms of your justifications, explanations and reasons for shifting your atheistic position are not sufficient to warrant such changes.

Ted Hoffman

Dawkins thinks that those who take the middle-view are "namby-pamby, mush-pap, weak-tea, weedy, pallid fence sitters," agnostics who "'... [are] wishy-washy boneless mediocrities who flapped around in the middle.'"

How about that huh?

No Robots

Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men, for you yourselves do not enter in; and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter.

Toto

And Jesus said of people who are lukewarm, that he would vomit them out of his mouth (in Revelations).

But I don't see that refusing to be labeled as in one camp or the other is the same as trying to strike a middle ground.

Clivedurdle

Not sure if people have come across Ideas {that changed the world} (or via: amazon.co.uk) and Pathfinders {A Global History of Exploration} (or via: amazon.co.uk), both by Felipe Fernandez Armesto.

I think there probably is a need to create a psychological and social religious atheism.

Like we need food and water we probably need transcendental stuff to keep our minds happy and rational - when they are not there lies war, madness, disease, poverty and hatred.

We are not there yet, there have been some very important insights in humanistic psychotherapy, but we use religious metaphors - like deism - to make sense of something that probably is random - like buying a painting by Hitler.

It is not a darker bias - there is a long tradition - including Thomas Hardy, Atheist Jews and Sea of Faith.

(Btw you do know your position does seem similar to Freke and Gandy's!)

Riverwind

Peter, you are coming across lately as someone who wants to have their cake and eat it too.

One place you say you're a Christian, another you say you're an atheist, and yet another you say you're a Deist.

It is beginning to seem like you want to confuse the heck out of everyone so that no one knows what you really believe and they have to simply take your work without labeling it because no one has any idea what your ideological beliefs are at this point. :huh:

You're too smart to be this confused. We're all confused in life, but this seems almost like intentional obfuscation.

Can you please explain what it is you feel you are trying to learn or accomplish, if anything, through all of this seeming wishy-washiness?

Please recall that the "tone" of a written post does not allow one to see the writer or the "mood" in which they wrote it. As you mentioned, I hope sincerely, I like you too. I'm not trying to be rude, and I'm really not mad and pounding my table as I write this. I'm just trying to ascertain what it is that you're really doing right now.

I still don't understand what changed from when you said it sounded swell to communicate until now. Have I offended you in some way? Hopefully no more so than when blanket accusations are thrown at Christians.

Riverwind

The more I read, the more convinced I am becoming that Peter is perhaps merely attempting to shed labels by attempting to adopt them all.