sschlichter

Luke 24:39 Look at my hands and my feet; it's me! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones like you see I have."
Luke 24:40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.
Luke 24:41 And while they still could not believe it (because of their joy) and were amazed, he said to them, "Do you have anything here to eat?"
Luke 24:42 So they gave him a piece of broiled fish,
Luke 24:43 and he took it and ate it in front of them.


Rom 1:3 concerning his Son who was a descendant of David with reference to the flesh,

Rom 3:25 God publicly displayed him at his death as the mercy seat accessible through faith. This was to demonstrate his righteousness, because God in his forbearance had passed over the sins previously committed.

Rom 5:15 ...the gift by the grace of the one man Jesus Christ multiply to the many!

spin

One can't buy into Gal 1:18-24 being an interpolation without also accepting many, if not all the, others Detering proposes. In so doing, I think one would understandably lose all hope of communicating about Paul's ideas with someone who doesn't accept the whole deal.

Gal 1:19 goes according to Detering as part of a larger interpolation, a catholicizing interpolation that brings Paul safely under the wing of orthodoxy, yet why would orthodoxy call Peter "Cephas", when there is no qualm about using "Peter" in 2:7-8 (which is clearly a catholicizing interpolation)?

This is based on a particular reading of the significance of κυριος which I think does not reflect Paul's use of the word. The earliest use in the literature is that the non-titular κυριος [ie κυριος not being used as a title, "the lord" as opposed to "my lord" or "lord Jesus"] reflects god and Paul is certainly not a trinitarian. What would make a reader believe that κυριος in Gal 1:19 refers to Jesus?

Our problem is the assimilation of the Greek use of κυριος for the savior so that it came to apply to Jesus. This renders several passages in Paul which use κυριος opaque because the reader doesn't really know who it refers to, though with the later church comes to accept the κυριος = Jesus formula and changes the meaning of the text.

I work on a simple idea that Paul being a hellenized Jew would have maintain the distinction found in LXX Ps 110:1 "the lord says to my lord" (non-titular vs titular κυριος). The LXX translator had no problem with the distinction, a distinction Paul must have inherited. But would Paul have confused his reader using κυριος to refer to Jesus as well as god??

It's not Paul's use of κυριος in Gal 1:19 that allows the reader to assume Jesus. It is the confusion brought about by the change in terminology that does.

judge

But , what you are failing to mention here (becuase it doesn't suit your agenda I presume) is that Paul uses κυριος to refer to Jesus elsewhere.
In at least one place you dont think is an interplotation (from what you've said on the matter previously).

Now this doesn't prove that galatians 1:19 must refer to Jesus, but it makes your comment above, "It is the confusion brought about by the change in terminology that does." wrong and misleading.

The reader could , possibly, see jesus there on the basis (partly at least), that elsewhere Paul uses κυριος ot refer to Jesus.

Seriously, where are you going to go with this (other than an internet forum), until you deal with that?

spin

You are confused and misled, but not by me.

Where exactly does Paul use the non-titular κυριος to refer to Jesus?

I can just sit here watching you chase your tail trying hard to find fault in what you haven't shown you understand.

judge

I dont know. I just know where he uses κυριος. I didnt claim it was titular or non titular.

You know where it is, so im not going to waste my time if its only for you. If someone esle chimes in, I might take the time to go and find it. Otherwise ive got more important things to do.

spin

When you say things, you're supposed to know what you're talking about.

So you're fundamentally saying you are talking through your hat and you've got nothing better to do.

judge

I said I know where paul uses κυριος to refer to Jesus. You then twisted this to try to make it sound like I had said i knew where Paul uses the ...er.. 'non titular" κυριος to refer to Jesus.

Being quite used to your games I decided not to play. Sorry, you'll have to find someone esle I have better things to do.:devil1:

hjalti

Ok, and why do you think that one must accept many or all the other proposals if one accepts the idea that Gal 1:18-24 is an interpolation?

A good point (and I agree completetly with Gal 2:7-8). But I don't think this observation is decisive.

Right, but I said that this was true if Gal 1:19 was a part of a later interpolation. So we wouldn't expect it to necesarrily reflect Paul's use of the word.

I've heard you talk about this before but I don't remember if you have argued for it extensively somewhere here (and I don't find it after a search).

It's an interesting idea, and I'm going trough the epistles as I write this, looking for some instances where it's clear to whom the non-titular lord refers to. I've noticed 1cor 6:14 (which you seem to think is an interpolation).

Right. But after reading Margaret Barker, I've bought the idea that early Christians thought that Jesus was Jahweh. So I would not find it strange if Jesus is the Lord.

But as I say, I'm going through the epistle now, looking for lords. Maybe you're absolutely correct. Do you have a list of non-titular lords that you think clearly refer to god and not Jesus? That would be helpful.

spin

Incisive. He also uses "he" to refer to Jesus as well, but try to be a little analytical. The distinction about κυριος as title or not has been on the table here regarding how to understand κυριος in Paul for a long time and all you've done is waste time ducking and weaving.

You are simply pulling this from your netherparts. If you don't understand the non-titular distinction of the usage of κυριος then obviously you can't "know what you're talking about."

You've had plenty of time to catch up on the topic. But, every time, you seem to start from scratch. Ever seen Memento?

Pot looking for kettle...

We've heard that from you before. It usually comes when you find yourself in your own poo.

Nobody forced you to talk.

Enjoy. :wave:

hjalti

spin, what do you think of the lord in 1Cor 6:17?