dr lazer blast

its not that you should, its that you do if you can separate the political system to excuse stalin then you should also separate the political system to excuse the religious monarchs.

Stephen T-B

"thats the problem stephen. People don't mind blaming religion when it comes to the crusades etc. but are up in arms when atheism is blamed for stalin despite the mountain of evidnece that supports that assertion." (dlb)
So we should blame religion for the Crusades, Mary's bloody reign etc?

dr lazer blast

you are missing the point. If you do blame religion for the crusades then you in turn must attribute atheism to stalin and all the other atheists as well.

Stephen T-B

"you are missing the point." (dlb)
Am I?
heard the expression: "What's good for the goose is good for the gander"?

If you blame Stalin's crimes on atheism, you must blame the crusades etc on religion.
That's what I'm saying.

So - do you (blame the crusades etc on religion)?

thentian

You know, what I was really hoping was that you would follow that link and educate yourself a little on the topic you have chosen to start. Then maybe you would have enough sense to not make blanket statements like "atheists kill a lot more people than religious dictators in a shorter amount of time". This is really something you should have done before starting this topic, but I fear it is something you are never going to do.

Furthermore, if the actual reasons for why someone commits genocide does not "absolve" an atheist/genocide correlation, then they also do nothing to absolve a religious/genocide correlation. But if you take the post to heart and realize that atrocities commited under religious regimes can´t be blamed on religion, you must also admit that atrocities commited under atheist regimes can´t be blamed on atheism. You can´t have your cake and eat it too, though.

fatpie42

I do think it's important not to forget that the same is true of the opponents of communism elsewhere in Europe. Let's not forget that the Nazi party came to power in Germany partially because many preferred it to the possibility of a communist uprising. That the Roman Catholic Church supported facism is something they are desperate to deny, however an interesting point noted by Michel Onfray against their protestations is that while the Church did nothing to help Jews escape from the Nazi regime (though the pope did ask that Hitler leave alone Jews who had converted to Catholicism), they actually actively aided Nazi war criminals in escaping Germany after the war ended. - True story.

The other side of all of this is that religion and politics have already been closely connected, even at such a late stage as the eras of Hitler and Stalin. This, of course, makes the whole issue of separating the sheep and the goats (so to speak) of religious/non-religious ideology much more awkward and complicated. On the other hand, if we take this problem seriously, it highlights just how naive the assertions that 'true Christians would never do anything bad' really are. How can you start talking about this 'true Christian' in abstraction from political and cultural climate in which people live? Thankfully we don't have an equivalent 'true atheist' and so long as we happily recognise the diversity of atheists and continue to recognise that disbelief doesn't make anybody any closer to ideal we'll be in a much better position in the argument.

dr lazer blast

Who I personally blame is totally irrelavent considering the simple fact that my reasons for blaming or totally different than yours. However I will answer your question, I think that stalins atheism can be blamed, considering as an atheist you are outside the protection of God and susceptible to satan, and I don't think christianity can be blamed considering the direct commandment from Jesus "love your neighbor as you love yourself" so the kings violated several laws of christianity and thus acted independently of it.

dr lazer blast

actually considering my beliefs I can blame atheism and not religion, you on the other hand are in an entierly different boat, further more it might be a 'blanket statement' but it is a blanket statement backed by evidence and facts.

Noe Sandoval

So your essentially insusceptible to reason. You could have just said that in the beginning instead of wasting everyone's time.

thentian

Ah, so you are not required to keep to the same standard as I am, because you´re a believer. What a wonderful rosy world that must be!

I am now nevertheless going to hold you to the same standard as us atheists: please provide said evidence and facts. And I don´t mean some list you found on a fundie site; I mean real numbers from encyclopedias and scholarly papers.