Solo

Thanks, Jon.

I think Mark has a definite theological/therapeutic purpose in his gospel recursion. You go around in circle (Samsara ?) until you find your way out. And the way out is spelled out in the central koan of Mark in 4:10-12

And when he was alone, those who were about him with the twelve asked him concerning the parables.

(even when he was alone (!) there were people around ?...Hmmm... If you don't get it, try Kafka: 'Messiah comes the day after he appears: the very last day !')


And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables;


("everything is in parables" - en parabolais ta panta ginetai - "everything" means - the whole gospel !!! some of the parables, many a learned exeget observed, are individually not that difficult to read !)


so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and be forgiven."


Best,
Jiri

Toto

As I recall, early church liturgical practice was to read scriptures from beginning to end, and then start over (the whole cycle taking a year.) If Mark's gospel was the only part of the liturgy, the beginning would follow on the end.

But the only records of early church liturgy seem to indicate that reading included the law and the prophets, the epistles, and the gospels.

JonA

I'm not sure that addressed my question. How does making his gospel 'circular' help Mark emphasize his Messianic secret theme?

Which 'ending' better emphasizes the Messianic secret theme? The women running out telling no one or being sent back to the beginning to hear the whole story yet again?

I'm not convinced you've adequately made your case for the latter.

Jon

aa5874

I think it is time you are reported for providing FALSE information about me. Even you have responded to my posts.

You are no longer involve in a rational discussion but is promoting PROPAGANDA.

You have ZERO credibility.

Vorkosigan

I tend to like the circular idea, but I see it as returning to somewhat later in chap 1, when Jesus appears to be baptized.

Another interpretation I've toyed with is based on one of Neil Godfrey's insights. He argued that Chapter 1 is a prologue that lays out the gospel in miniature, ending the pericope before the leper, with the disciples searching for Jesus, just as in the tomb scene at the end (you can work out the other parallels yourself). In that case, the ending of 16:8 would take you back to the scene with the leper presenting himself to be healed.

That works for me, because that sets up Mark in two parallel parts, each fronted with set containing six pericopes of confrontations that end in sayings, Chaps 2 and 12, respectively. More than that cannot be said because of the bastard editor who tore up the center of Mark.

The ending with the women running away saying nothing has a couple of obvious uses, one being the messianic secret, but I don't think that is the right reason. The woman have to remain silent because Paul records a different story, that Jesus appeared first to male followers. So the women's testimony would have to vanish in order to harmonize the two conflicting accounts -- similarly, Paul's account is often edited to change the TWELVE to ELEVEN to account for the invented betrayal of Judas.

Vorkosigan

Solo

Hi Michael,
- interesting possibilities.

I take it you don't see - on the second pass through 1:2 - that the Isaiah[sic] prophecy actually references both baptists. I thought that was pretty neat....but anyhow....

Mark uses recursive technique in narration to create paradoxes: e.g. Jesus telling the scared crew of the boat as who think he is a phantasma as he levitates to them, "it's me don't worry !" (Remember, the subscript under Magritte's pipe ? "Ceci n'est pas une pipe !"). Another recursive twisting happens when the disciples try to figure out if there is bread again on the boat. The narraive plainly states they have one loaf (8:14), meaning 'Jesus' in the allusion to the two feedings of the multitudes which go back to the eucharist suggestion of 1 Cr 10:16 - "the bread we break......"). Jesus says, "why are you saying there is no bread ?" .
See what the bugger was doing ?

The third example of recursion: in his last book, ('Cutting Jesus Down to Size') G.A. Wells puzzles over Jesus' saying about in 4:10-12 that to those on the outside everything is given in parables, so they may see but not perceive....till they turn. Wells says that Mark himself acknowledges that the scribes understand the parables of 3:23, and the multitudes receives him "gladly" in 12:37. Other exegets noted that some of the parables are not that hard to understand either. So what's going on ? I am suggesting to read 'ta panta' in 4:11 recursively - as 'the whole gospel' - yes, MARK says to those on the inside - the pneumatics - hey, this whole babblefest is an allegory and you and I know what it is about.

Now if you agree that Mark wanted to do just that then you will likely also agree that the two baptisms of John and Paul (by proxy), represent the entry and exit point in the life of the spirit. Essentially a trap door through which you cycle from glorious phantasy into self-torture, and self-annihilation... until you repent (mend your ways) and take up the cross you will stay in the Samsara of desire, false hopes and frustration - like the incomprehending disciples.

Now, you might want to apply the recursive techinque to the women not telling anyone as the solution to the messianic secret ! See it ?


Hey, do you think Irenaeus would have wanted his church to teach that ?

Or imagine him admitting that Jesus walking on the water was not really....ehm....invented as a story of....ehm... a miracle, but as an inside joke of the gnostic heretics !? :huh:



Best,
Jiri

Solo

Who is being sent back to hear the whole story yet again, Jon ? You only go back if you did not get it and are obsessed by not getting it.

But everyone who has read the gospel knows that Mark openly advertizes Jesus is the Messiah, and then mischievously makes him try to hush it up. So what's the secret and what do the women have to do with ?

Beats me; maybe I should go back and read it again ! :huh:

Best,
Jiri

JonA

According to you: anyone who is reading the gospel with a proper understanding of the subtle lead from the end back to the beginning. I see nothing gained from sending the reader in circles, and I'm not sure Mark would have either.

The 'secret' refers just to that: Jesus' repeated mandate to 'tell no one'.

Clearly, they keep the secret, at the one time when they've actually been given a command not to keep the secret. Is this related? It is hard to tell; it may, it may not. One thing is for sure, the potential of a relationship to the Messianic secret cannot simply be dismissed here.

Never hurts. Might even be of use to make a list of miracles accompanied by a charge of secrecy, a charge to proclaim, and a no charge.

You might find something interesting.

Jon

Solo

Thanks for your input, Jon

Jiri

JonA

I went ahead and made such a list; here is what I came up with:

No Specific Charge	Tell No One (secret)	Tell Someone (proclaim)
1:21-28--Exorcises a spirit in the Synagogue (publicly)	1:40-45--Cleanses a leper (leper tells)	5:1-20--Gerasene demonic exorcism
1:29-31--Cures Simon's mother-in-law of a fever	3:12--Orders spirity not to make him known (no miracle)	16:1-8--Resurrection (figure tells women; women tell no one)
1:32-34, 39--Heals many	5:35-43--Raises a girl (from death?)
2:1-12--Heals the paralytic through the roof (publicly)	7:24--Did not want others to know he was in a house (no miracle)
3:1-5--Heals withered hand (publicly)	7:31-37--Restores speech and hearing (onlookers tell)
4:39--Calms the storm (disciples only see)	8:22-26--Two-try cure for blind man (told not to go into village)
5:21-34--Heals the woman with a hemorrhage (publicly)	8:27-30--"You are the Christ" (tells disciples to keep secret)
6:5--Healed sick	9:1-10--Transfiguration (tells disciples to keep secret until raised from dead)
6:35-44--Feeding 5,000 (publicly)
6:45-52--Walk on water (disciples only see)
6:56--Heals many (publicly)
7:25-30--Exorcises demon from distance
8:1-9--Feeding 4,000 (publicly)
9:14-27--Casts spirit out of boy (publicly?)
10:46-52--Restores sight (publicly; man follows Jesus)

Now, when I look at this, I notice that the Messianic secret is not as much of a secret as one might first think: there are far more instances of Jesus giving no instructions and giving instructions to tell than there are of Jesus giving instructions not to tell. Thus, I suspect that more important than a simple charge to secrecy, the events associate with the charge are crucial to understanding the significance of the Messianic secret.

The type of miracles associated with not telling are cleansing, resurrecting, and restoring senses miracles (only one of such miracles occurs with no specific charge, Mk. 10:46ff., in which the healed man follows Jesus).

In Mark, the only ones we are told for sure know Jesus' identity are his disciples (8:27ff.) and demons (3:12). The only ones who know of the Resurrection—the most important event of the gospel—are the women (16:1ff.).

None of these folk who are in the know tell anyone (as far as we know). The rest of the instances of making things known relate only to miracles (cf. 4:10–12), which Jesus does not consider the important aspect of his ministry (8:11ff.). Thus, the important things are never made known; the unimportant things are proclaimed with fervor.

How might a never-ending gospel fit into this pattern?

It's something to consider.

Jon