Freethought & Rationalism Archive

TomboyMom · 08-07-2007, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Occam's Aftershave

We really need to come up with a term for AFdave's constant habit of shooting himself in the foot;

Like citing AIG's reference to 5 million year old mountains to support a 6000 year old Earth claim.

Or claiming 'mutations create no new information', then using a definition of 'information' in which it is trivially easy to show increase.

Or saying one must read a book cover to cover in order to honestly criticize it, then admitting he hasn't read any of the books he is criticizing.

"Hypocridave"?

"Pedicide" ?

Let's hear those ideas folks!

I believe that the proper term is self-pwn.

Lugubert · 08-07-2007, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Simply reading through the Bible with no education or knowledge of its historical/lingusitic/political/literary context is not particularly useful or informative anyway. Entertaining, mayebe. Interesting, certainly, perhaps even inspiring, but if you don't know who wrote it and why and when and where and what their intent was, you're not really going to understand much.

The first sentence describes me when I long ago did the cover to cover thing. It would have been interesting to remember now what I thought then and how I handled for example the OT atrocities and violations of nature's laws. I'm perfectly sure that I didn't believe in a literal six days creation. I can't swear that I didn't believe in the Flood, but at least I have never advocated its existence. I probably believed in Jesus' water walking :redface: , but was puzzled that people could be made to eat their full on fish :Cheeky: .

It wasn't until I took university religious studies at the age of 50+ that I understood that I had to argue with myself to arrive at a set of beliefs that I could name my own. From that point, it was a quick, easy and efficient process leading even to a MJ standpoint.

stp2007 · 08-07-2007, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

I suppose that Faid is implying that I should not criticize ToE if I have not read Darwin's Origin?

Nonsense.

I'm not criticizing a book. I'm criticizing a theory ... And I have studied ToE extensively.

I suppose that afdave is implying that I should not criticize Christianity religion if I have not read the bible?

Nonsense.

I'm not criticizing a book. I'm criticizing a religion an irrational belief ... And I have studied religion ignorance extensively.

khalimirov · 08-07-2007, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anders

From that point, it was a quick, easy and efficient process leading even to a MJ standpoint.

That's too bad. I find mainstream HJ research quite convincing (but I guess that's not really relevant for this thread).

Derec · 08-07-2007, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Occam's Aftershave

Like citing AIG's reference to 5 million year old mountains to support a 6000 year old Earth claim.

AIG referenced any 5 million year old mountains? How can that be, when they do not believe there even was 5 million BC (credit to Steven Colbert)

Derec · 08-07-2007, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jobber

Are you having her read Who Wrote the Bible by Friedman?

I did mention it. It's up to her to pick it up and read. I'll mention it again when we go back to Exodous. Right now we are doing Romans (she wanted to do a NT book after Genesis).

Baalazel · 08-07-2007, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

OK ... so a lot of you have read the Bible completely. Good. I hope this thread has at least eliminated a few criticizers from the fray. Is there anyone here who would admit to having criticized the Bible, yet you have not read it?

Dave, what was your expectation for your question? I would say that you intended to show how dishonest the infidels are in criticizing a work they knew nothing about. You could then easily hold yourself up as the resident Biblical expert whom the unbelievers could not assail. Close?

Quote:

As for the Koran, it seems that the consensus is that some individuals have become better people as a result of Islam, that there is some Islamic charity work, and they have some prophecies that they think are convincing. I guess some of the differences are a matter of degree: the Bible's distribution far outpaces the Koran, I'm guessing that the number of Christian hospitals, orphanges, etc. far exceeds Islam's and so on.

We all applaud your admission of ignorance regarding the Koran. We await your admission of ignorance regarding the bible.

Quote:

As for the Bible ... its historical accuracy,

How did King Saul die? Your answer to this one question will reveal your lack of knowledge of the Bible and at once destroy your claim of historical accuracy for the Bible. This is, I think the third time I’ve asked you this. Do try to prove me wrong.

Quote:

remarkably fulfilled prophecies,

Why do you insist on asserting time and again these hollow apologias without making any attempt to provide evidence for them? I can only surmise that you know the form but not the substance. Your knowledge of scripture is so shallow as to be all surface.

Quote:

accurate description of the human condition,

As I did earlier I ask you to read the book of Joshua. You could no doubt compose a lengthy post on its description of the human condition. Should you be unable to do so I will add one more item to my list of arguments you can not offer.

Quote:

its simple, sensible formulas for a successful society proven in Britain, America and other countries,

Oh, how very tired and limp an argument. Great Britain is one of the least religious countries on Earth and the population of the U.S. is now about the business of rejecting the very religious attitudes you claim and which have sown so disastrous a course on our nation.

Quote:

its unity of theme amidst diversity of authorship,

I would like to point out to those who hold the Hebrew scriptures in high regard that the Jews were allowed only one art form. The written word. That the volume they produced is remarkable goes without saying. To claim it surmounts all other religious writings is to, again, reveal your unfamiliarity with religious works in general and with your own scriptures specifically.

Quote:

its preservation despite constant attack and so on

Please redeem yourself and give some morsel of evidence that the Bible is, or has ever been in danger of so vigorous an attack that it will no longer be available to those, like us, who read it. Or to those like you who defend it without having read it.

Quote:

cause me to believe that the Bible, like life itself, originated in the Mind of a Super Intelligence.

A Super Intelligence who could not keep his facts together on how Saul died.
It's a stumper. I could say I wont hold it against you if you can't find the answer. But I will.

Quote:

I suppose if I had to sum up the differences (and mind you ... I only know about the Koran from what people tell me), it would boil down to this: the Bible seems supernatural in origin and the Koran does not.

But ... maybe to show you that I'm not closed minded, I'll read it sometime.

How do you sum up anything knowing absolutely nothing of it by your own admission?

Quote:

(I'm teaching Vacation Bible School all this week, so not much time for posting ... maybe more time next week

At sixteen I helped organize a Thursday night Bible study for high school students. At seventeen I hosted a Friday night Bible study for Junior high students. I can imagine how rigorous vacation Bible school must be but I found time to co-host a weekly radio show and spend three weeks in South Florida as a counselor at a youth camp. Do try to fit us in. We have so little fun as it is.

Baal

Faid · 08-08-2007, 02:43 AM

Hmm... Just to make sure...

Dave, have YOU "read the Bible cover to cover"?

Alethias · 08-08-2007, 04:46 AM

I just saw this thread for the first time, so I thought I'd answer afdave's OP.

I've read the bible through. In point of fact, I think I've read it through at least 3 and maybe 4 times in the space of a year. I've also read it through in Russian. I've studied(read all of the Torah and parts of the law and prophets) it in Hebrew(Both the old testament and a hebrew translation of the new testament) and Greek. I've read various parts of it many more times; for example, I spent years reading a chapter of proverbs a day and 5 psalms a day, along with my other bible reading.

I've also led bible studies, and was a successful home fellowship group leader. My group grew enough that it had to split and become 2 seperate groups 3 different times, and I started it from nothing.

I started going to church when I was a few weeks old and was baptized as a christian at 15. I deconverted at 42(i'm 46 now) after having been a part of various churches of christ, charismatic non-denominational churches and Messianic Jewish synagogues, as well as being a bible teacher and an ordained minister.

In my opinion, there are people here that know enough to teach your doctrines at least as good as you can teach them, if not better in spite of believing it fiction.

I don't post much in this forum because I feel underqualified here. You really shouldn't challenge people on their pedigrees. If truth is important to you, why should a pedigree matter?

Lucretius · 08-08-2007, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

I hear a lot of erroneous criticism of the Bible ... "it's a Bronze Age myth ... it's full of errors ... it's totally implausible ..." ... etc. etc.

But I am curious about something ... how many of you have actually READ the Bible?

The whole thing? If not the whole thing, please specify what parts you have read.

I am particularly interested in hearing from my "fans" who have followed me for the past year or so, but anyone is welcome to chime in.

In a possible vain attempt to get this back on topic
I would like to ask Dave a few questions which as far as I can see reading all these pages he still has not answered.
As I asked in the 5th post of this thread have you read it Dave ?
All of it ?
If not which parts ?
And, as I was reminded by reading the favourite books of the Bible thread, which version ?
I was reminded as the Book of Judith is in the Catholic version but not in the Protestant one so if you have only read the Protestant one all the way through (which I very much doubt ) I can trump that with some extra books that are only in the Catholic version

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08-08-2007, 02:43 AM	#308
Faid Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 1,057	Hmm... Just to make sure... Dave, have YOU "read the Bible cover to cover"?

08-08-2007, 04:46 AM	#309
Alethias Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 7,198	I just saw this thread for the first time, so I thought I'd answer afdave's OP. I've read the bible through. In point of fact, I think I've read it through at least 3 and maybe 4 times in the space of a year. I've also read it through in Russian. I've studied(read all of the Torah and parts of the law and prophets) it in Hebrew(Both the old testament and a hebrew translation of the new testament) and Greek. I've read various parts of it many more times; for example, I spent years reading a chapter of proverbs a day and 5 psalms a day, along with my other bible reading. I've also led bible studies, and was a successful home fellowship group leader. My group grew enough that it had to split and become 2 seperate groups 3 different times, and I started it from nothing. I started going to church when I was a few weeks old and was baptized as a christian at 15. I deconverted at 42(i'm 46 now) after having been a part of various churches of christ, charismatic non-denominational churches and Messianic Jewish synagogues, as well as being a bible teacher and an ordained minister. In my opinion, there are people here that know enough to teach your doctrines at least as good as you can teach them, if not better in spite of believing it fiction. I don't post much in this forum because I feel underqualified here. You really shouldn't challenge people on their pedigrees. If truth is important to you, why should a pedigree matter?

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