Clivedurdle

I started a discussion in S and S that has gone quiet about how ideas spread.

If we have archaeological evidence, written evidence, known existence of similar pre dating ideas, known contact between peoples through war and trade, what exactly is the problem?

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=206808

I would want to explore further other examples of contacts - like how did xianity change on contact with the new world? Things are two way - co-evolution!

jgibson000

Where does Plutarch tell us that Pompey brought/introduced any of the Cilician Pirates he subdued, and who were not exclusively Mithraists, to Rome in any capacity, let alone as slaves?

Jeffrey

Ratel

In the Wikipaedia article on Mithra, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithra there is a picture of a radiant figure wearing a phrygian cap, the caption reads:

"Antiochus and Mithra, with radiate phrygian cap, bas-relief of the temple built by Antiochus I of Commagene, 69-31 BCE, on the Nemrood Dagh, in the Taurus Mountains."

Is that accurate? If so, it provides a link between Asiatic and Roman Mithras/ Mithra iconography, does it not?


Hmmm- looking further into this, Antiochus was son of a Mithridates, and Commagene is right in the neighborhood of Cilicia. Tarsus is in Cilicia. Very interesting.

Roger Pearse

Sadly not, given the number of deities depicted in a Phrygian cap. All of this is derived from the great but now outdated work of Franz Cumont, of which the conclusions alone appeared in English as the Mysteries of Mithra. You will see in the list of illustrations the same picture.

If you look here you get a bit more data about this site.

"The row of statues on the western terrace depict the same deities and there are also reliefs showing King Antiochus shaking hands with Apollo-Mithra-Hermes, with Zeus-Oromasdes, and with Herakles-Ares-Artagnes."

Now I don't know, but if this is so then we are dealing with reliefs intended to pair-up Greek and Persian deities. Mithra, in that group, is the *Persian* contribution, and is therefore Mitra, not Mithras.

Adding to all this confusion is the general willingness of pagan cults to borrow things from each other, to share iconography (somewhere there is probably pictures of every deity of Olympus in a phrygian cap, including the horse); indeed the fact that Perseus shares much of the iconography of Mithras was mentioned.

As I began by saying, there is so much jumping to conclusions, particularly by people who believe that somehow they can score a religious point. I have reached the stage at which I believe *nothing* about Mithras unless I can see the ancient evidence that compels me to do so.

Incidentally all the ancient literary evidence about Mithras is here. I got fed up of all the hot air some time ago and wondered on what (if anything) it was based. So I thought I'd go and find out.

I also have one on Sol Invictus, although incomplete.

What beats me is how so many people will speak with such certainty about matters on which they know no more than that they read something attractive somewhere. Still, scepticism about what we want to believe is always a rare thing.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

jgibson000

Except for the facts -- assuming I see correctly where this is going, i.e., Paul knew the Mithras cult -- that we have to accept that Acts is correct regarding Paul's birth place, and that there is no evidence that Mithras was known, let alone was ever given cult, in Tarsus.

Jeffrey Gibson

spin

I don't remember saying that Pompey himself introduced the pirates to Rome, nor that Plutarch told of his bringing them to Rome.

Pompey's forces captured these pirates throughout the Mediterranean. While Pompey tended to be generous in his treatment of the pirates, others escaped from his forces in the Mediterranean or attempted to so as to surrender to him, indicating that his forces had been less generous than he. Prisoners tended to end up on the slave markets (just as the prisoners from Pompey's siege of Jerusalem ended on slave markets, some of whom must have made it to Rome to explain the sizeable presence in the middle of the first c. BCE).

At the same time, Pompey was given his third triumph, that over Asia, for which it was usual to parade trophies of conquests. That should naturally have included the conquest over the pirates.


spin

Ratel

I'm still trying to figure out the rites and worship of Anatolian Mithra- only when that is decided can we speculate about a genetic connection to either Mithras or Christianity. Yes?

spin

A Rogerian citation:
This should be helpful in understanding the migratory process that was in process regarding Mithras. The syncretism of Mithras with the sun had already started, Apollo being the sun god, but actually it is usually enunciated as Apollo-Mithra-Helios-Hermes, according to both Beck and Ekrem Akurgal (remember "Heliogabalus"?). Symbolism found at Nemrut Dag later turns up in the Roman mithraea.


spin

Ratel

Thanks for all this info, I'm still going through it. I'm checking out the Nimrut Dagi site, so far I've found a bas relief of Mithridates shaking hands with Heracles. Heracles is depicted in the standard classical way, not wearing a radiant phrygian cap.

Your website states that Attis and Mithras were both depicted in the phrygian cap, do you know of any others off hand? I'm sure there are some, given the degree of syncretism in the Mediterranean world.


Do you agree that the Roman Mithras iconography shares a relation to the constellation Perseus?

Ratel

Spin, what would be a good source for iconography at Nemrut Dagi?