Chili

Read above in my replay to Reena.

And no, our best evidence is the inspired lineage that goes past Abraham, past Adam back to God. That proves without any question that we are like a grafted branch and draw from the same source which is the God of Abraham.

Chili

There is good things about porn but pityable is he who needs it to affirm himself a man. This same is true for a woman and that is why it is an assualt on the womanity of women and on the humanity of males.

Spitfire

Okay, back to some things I've been meaning to address before this thread started getting weirder...

It would have to be something better than anything any of us could possibly imagine while bound to our motral existence. Otherwise this is all a cruel joke. And I can't PROVE that it's not, but I can only hope so seeing that God did come to our rescue and suffered on our behalf when he could have left us with no way out of our fallen state.

"Not my will, but thine be done." This hardly constitutes uncertainty. Jesus COULD have done differently, yes, otherwise his temptation in the desert would have been meaningless. But though the Son has his own free will it can only be in perfect alignment with the will of the Father. I don't think any other religion has come up with anything like this, either one is subordinate to another or they are at odds with one another.


Tell me what you have heard and I will clarify if there are flaws. Or do you mean that you don't believe that good and evil are more than a matter of perception?

Secular authorities all over the world love them too.

Where do you propose we start, then?

I don't believe people came up with stupid ideas like those totally on their own.

Thank you for going through all that trouble, that was an excellent summary of all the ideas it has taken many professors many hours of rambling over many years to express to me. Though I feel it still does not account why our minds, if we really are just animals, can conceive of such things as beauty, perfection, justice, good or evil. And would even other animals subscribe to the herd or pack menatality and seek to protect each other if the true nature of reality were cold indifference? Even if we we know we risk putting our own life in danger in trying to save another member of the pack, something inside us tells us we SHOULD even if this might result in a greater net loss to our species. Why do we care about our own species anyway? Maybe a lot of us don't, but every culture in the world seems to agree that we should feel some sort of obligation to our own even if a lot of people are highly egocentric on an individual level.

And, if what you said there IS right, all I have to say is that I am seriously pissed off that we don't have claws or venom glands or anything like that. We're at the top of the food chain, after all. Admittedly, I do have claws, and am very proud of them. And I'm sure I could kill someone with them, but that would be a lot of work, they're hardly efficient compared to a bear's for example. They make typing a little difficult too sometimes, though it's mostly laziness on my part when I make a mistake, if I spend all the time I do looking words up to make sure I'm using the right one and spelling it correctly I should be able to take a few seconds to make sure I typed it correctly too.

Spitfire

Obviously you don't think it is flawless, otherwise you would still be Catholic, I presume? There are some things I have to "take with a grain of salt" as well - one of them being what you mentioned about someone not being able to remarry if their partner abandons them - but age and experience have led me to new understandings of things which did not make sense or seemed unfair to me before and I don't plan to stop learning at any time in my life.

The criticism seems to come either from people who are confused or unwilling to draw any other conclusion from the beginning that the Bible has to be flawed and therefore are incapable of honest criticism. The Church dealt with the issue of the authenticity of the Bible. Yes, I have to have faith that St. Jerome and others took this matter seriously and knew what they were doing. I don't think this is unreasonable. When I go to a trattoria and order a pizza with mushrooms, I always have faith that they aren't going to put any poisonous mushrooms on it, and I'm not dead yet.

Spitfire

Once again, my conscience would be my only defense. Hopefully my conscience would stand between me and my inclinations and help me understand that unnecessary violence is not how Christ would want us to set an example for other Christians if we are to assert ourselves as his one true Church.

Spitfire

There are worse things that pornography, yes. But even if it weren't the huge source of income for organized crime that it is, it teaches people to dissociate sexual feelings and sexual expression from the love for and loyalty to a partner that sexuality should go hand in hand with. Which I believe to be harmful to society, making it evil according to your own definition.

Chili

The shortest version here is because there is no plural in the Greek language for the word "einai"= the Universal essence of God is that beatifies us. This, in turn, gives rise to the Beatific vision that warrants Beatification after the fact. Hence, no saints = no God among us.

Imnotspecial

Hi Spitfire,
Let me say first that I love your name. You are so true to its meaning. Your posts are really refreshing and fun to read. I do have a lot of sympathy for your position as I only deconverted from Catholicism about 3 years ago - or is it 5 already?

I wish less time would be spent on the question of the existence of God. The truth is that most people believe it reasonable to assume that there is a power greater than ourselves.

Can we then advance to the point where this leads to the Catholic version of God?

You made reference to what would have happened had you been born into a Moslem cultural setting. This idea was actually one of the turning points in my understanding of the religious mind. Listening to fundies, Moslems, conservative Catholics, liberal ones and pre-Vatican 2 ones and recognizing that everyone was totally entrenched in his own ideas made me question whether I myself might have been misled. You posing this question makes me hopeful.

Catholicism follows its own inner logic quite convincingly. It culminates in the recognition of infallibility. When I still firmly believed this doctrine I used to try to convince others, that if this is not true, then God has never spoken at all. You would have to believe this also! (following Catholic logic) The weak point was, that I only need to establish one incident of the Church not being right and then the whole house of cards must fall. Of course I did find a few since then.

You mentioned the infallibly declared doctrine of Mary's assumption and made it kind of unimportant. It is not. As a Catholic you are required to believe it.

You mentioned that your conscience forces you to accept the Catholic Church. Mine forced me to abandon it. I could no longer go there and give assent to "This is the Word of God" after the readings. I could no longer express "as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ". I could no longer listen to "God loves you so much" 10 times in every sermon when I know that only a little over 200 years ago the only emphasis was how bad we are and that most of us will go to hell. The funny thing is that I don't know of any Catholic nowadays who is really afraid of hell. Did I miss out on a new revelation from God?

Reena

Isn't this a strange way to fulfill the Law?

Mark 7
7 In vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines human precepts.'
8 You disregard God's commandment but cling to human tradition."
9 He went on to say, "How well you have set aside the commandment of God in order to uphold your tradition!
10 For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and 'Whoever curses father or mother shall die.' 11 Yet you say, 'If a person says to father or mother, "Any support you might have had from me is qorban"' 4 (meaning, dedicated to God),
12 you allow him to do nothing more for his father or mother.

//Suggests that Jesus was aware of the "curse your parents and die" law, and approved of it

Luke 17
25 But first he must suffer greatly and be rejected by this generation.
26 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be in the days of the Son of Man;
27 they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage up to the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 Similarly, as it was in the days of Lot: they were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building;
29 on the day when Lot left Sodom, fire and brimstone rained from the sky to destroy them all. 30 So it will be on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

//This suggests that Jesus approves of Flood and destruction of Sodom, and plans to do it again.


The harshness of Jesus:

Matthew 7
13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.
14 How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.
//I don't see how this can suggest anything but that most people go to hell. Most people aren't evil enough to go to hell.

Matthew 19
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Amen, I say to you, it will be hard for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven.
24 Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

//If this analogy is accurate, all the rich people are going to go to hell, but do they deserve it? Plus, relative to third world everyone here is "rich" including you!!!

Matthew 10
11 Whatever town or village you enter, look for a worthy person in it, and stay there until you leave.
12 As you enter a house, wish it peace.
13 If the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it; if not, let your peace return to you. 6
14 Whoever will not receive you or listen to your words--go outside that house or town and shake the dust from your feet.
15 Amen, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.
28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

//More threats, this time eternal threats.

Matthew 25
44 Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?'
45 He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.'
46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

//This is quite different from the idea of mortal sin sending you to hell, here if you don't do good deeds you will burn.

Luke 12
47 That servant who knew his master's will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely;
48 and the servant who was ignorant of his master's will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.
49 "I have come to set the earth on fire, and how I wish it were already blazing!
50 There is a baptism with which I must be baptized, and how great is my anguish until it is accomplished!
51 Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division.
52 From now on a household of five will be divided, three against two and two against three;
53 a father will be divided against his son and a son against his father, a mother against her daughter and a daughter against her mother, a mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law."
//So much for the "give us your peace" bit at mass.

Luke 14
26 "If any one comes to me without hating his father 7 and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. 27 Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.

//Why does Jesus want people to hate their family?

Questionable things Jesus did:


Mark 10
17 As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up, knelt down before him, and asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
18 Jesus answered him, "Why do you call me good? 3 No one is good but God alone.

//Here Jesus seems to be saying that he is not God

Luke 9
26 Whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
27 Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God."

//But this is false, all those people died and the kingdom has yet to come, although it might explain why Paul believed in an impending apocalypse


Mark 4
10 And when he was alone, those present along with the Twelve questioned him about the parables.
11 He answered them, "The mystery of the kingdom of God has been granted to you. But to those outside everything comes in parables,
12 so that 'they may look and see but not perceive, and hear and listen but not understand, in order that they may not be converted and be forgiven.'"

//It seems to say that he is being vague on purpose, so that fewer people will be converted and forgiven.


Mark 7
26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophoenician by birth, and she begged him to drive the demon out of her daughter.
27 He said to her, "Let the children be fed first. 9 For it is not right to take the food of the children and throw it to the dogs." 28 She replied and said to him, "Lord, even the dogs under the table eat the children's scraps."
29 Then he said to her, "For saying this, you may go. The demon has gone out of your daughter."

//It is very surprising that God would call her a dog simply because she is not Jewish by birth.

Mark 3
20 He came home. Again (the) crowd gathered, making it impossible for them even to eat.
21 When his relatives heard of this they set out to seize him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."

//Very curious that his relatives would think this, especially if Mary knew Jesus was God's son


Mark 16
15 He said to them, "Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature.
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.
17 These signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will drive out demons, they will speak new languages.
18 They will pick up serpents (with their hands), and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not harm them. They will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

//The reason this is questionable is becuase it is not true. It also suggests that people who don't believe are going to go to hell.


Matthew 18
19 16 Again, (amen,) I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything for which they are to pray, it shall be granted to them by my heavenly Father.

//I bet there are at least two people praying for the liberation of North Koreans, or for the cure for AIDS, or for some other worthy goal. I bet entire congregations and convents and abbeys (where monks are?) pray for these types of things. And yet they still exist.

Matthew 24

29 16 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man 17 will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he will send out his angels 18 with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 32 19 "Learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near.
33 In the same way, when you see all these things, know that he is near, at the gates.
34 Amen, I say to you, this generation 20 will not pass away until all these things have taken place

//Seems he was wrong, although he does say after that only the Father knows when the Son will return.

But more important are the things Jesus didn't do: he didn't condemn slavery, he didn't fight for the rights of women. If I'm not mistaken the Church thought slavery was okay for quite a while, and women were historically treated like crap.

It always seems wrong. It hurts people for no reason.

jackrabbit

You have proof of this, I assume? That the large number of porn production studios and publishers and distributors and video stores are under the control of organized crime?

Also, the decentralized nature of internet porn makes it difficult for any kind of organized crime entity take control of it. Any sexy girl can put pictures of herself on her own website and make big bucks, and many do. Are you saying that organized crime can track down who she really is, where she is located, and strongarm her into giving them the money? What if she actually lives in Madrid?

And that's just one girl. Does even organized crime have the resources to track down the thousands of porn web sites all over the world?

Conversely, I believe religion is far more harmful to society, making it more evil by my definition, by locking them into rigid thought patterns and preventing them from thinking outside of that box. Authority figures tell them to believe something and they do. You claim that you questioned your faith and reaffirmed it. Perhaps so. But many people never seem to question at all, just accept the brainwashing.

How is your assertion more true than mine?

Also, you say porn teaches people to do this and that. It doesn't mean that the teaching will take. I was taught that god and jeebus were real my entire childhood, but I never really believed it.

Saying that porn is evil because someone might do something is like saying booze is evil because someone might become an alcoholic, food is evil because someone might become a glutton, and cars are evil because someone might run over an old lady.

Many of us who watch porn can relate to real women just fine. My ex-wife had a far lower sex drive than me, and jerking off to porn was a way to get through the in-between times. It had no effect on our relationship and we did just fine when she was in the mood.