Kosh

I thought the Jews were just Caananites who forgot?

Soul Invictus

Well I guess I'm back to square one. I'm really trying to understand the concept of what you/others believe a Jew is, so using the term to define itself doesn't help. By this, when you say that "A baby is either Jewish or non-Jewish -- there is no "faith" criterion." this doesn't tell me anything to understand the definition.

Can you please define what you mean when you say you are a Jew? As I had mentioned earlier from the perspective of a Jew being someone who adheres to Judaism, I understand that notion. Outside of that the term isn't well defined for me to understand your statement.

FloatingEgg

I'm confused because I just assumed that a Jew was someone that followed Judaism.

J-D

Jews are those people who are considered, by themselves and by others, to belong to the Jewish ethnic group.

This definition is exactly as good (or, if you prefer to look at it that way, exactly as bad) as the exactly corresponding definitions for other ethnic groups, for example:

Apaches are those people who are considered, by themselves and by others, to belong to the Apache ethnic group.

Quechuas are those people who are considered, by themselves and by others, to belong to the Quechua ethnic group.

Hutus are those people who are considered, by themselves and by others, to belong to the Hutu ethnic group.

Sami are those people who are considered, by themselves and by others, to belong to the Sami ethnic group.

Kurds are those people who are considered, by themselves and by others, to belong to the Kurdish ethnic group.

Balinese are those people who are considered, by themselves and by others, to belong to the Balinese ethnic group.

Maori are those people who are considered, by themselves and by others, to belong to the Maori ethnic group.

...

(See my previous post to this thread for some further examples. I could easily go on.)

Chris Weimer

Jewishness isn't merely a religious group. See J-D's post.

Soul Invictus

Wisdumb's post was pretty interesting. The Canaanite notion might be something to look into. What is the scholarly position on this angle? Also, how far back have the Jews (based on whatever definition that one uses for them) did they first demonstrate their presence in civilization? This may be a terribly ignorant remark, however the oldest I could imagine would be at the age of their religious literature...or has there Jewish archaeological finds been made to substantiate an older presence?

premjan

My guess - whatever the national foundation myth is - the group as a concrete one is no older than that - though some of their traditions may be older. Hence we have to date the Exodus myth to really identify the origin of the Jews.

J-D

The question: When and how did the Jews emerge as a distinct ethnic group? is an interesting one, just as the parallel question for other ethnic groups is. There's more evidence for the case of the Jews than there is for some groups, and less than there is for others. The question does take us beyond the original scope of this thread, because whenever or however an existing ethnic group first emerged does not change the fact that it exists now.

Anat

Soul Invictus, the Merneptah Stele from the late 13th century BCE is the first mention of Israel as a group of people defeated by merneptah (the heir of RamessesII). You can get an idea about what some archaeologists think about the origins of the Israelites from How to Tell a Canaanite from an Israelite. You can see that of the four present, three support some variation of the Canaanite origin hypothesis, while the fourth supports an origin via invasion from the east.

Whatever their initial origin, archaeologists consider Israelites (or proto-Israelites) as those that settled in the hill country at the beginning of the Iron Age.

Soul Invictus

I thank you all for these sources. Of which greater group do scholars argue that Jews belong to? Canaanites? Israelites? Hebrews? Proto-Israelites? I don't even know what a 'proto'-Israelite is supposed to be. Also, is Hebrew a scientifically endorsed term or is it only relevant when speaking from the perspective of religious text. I honestly cannot recall ever reading about Hebrews except from the OT and/or the NT. Not too sure if the NT mentions them.