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Old 09-26-2007, 08:05 AM   #321
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Originally Posted by afdave View Post
Jack ...
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I'll try to clarify by using bold:
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His splitting of the flood account leaves the usual problems in the text (were there two of each clean animal, or fourteen? were the waters on the earth for 40 days or 150 days? and so on...) which the DH takes out because they end up in the separate accounts.
...Hmmm. Perhaps this would help:
Quote:
His splitting of the flood account leaves the usual problems in the text (were there two of each clean animal, or fourteen? were the waters on the earth for 40 days or 150 days? and so on...) which the DH takes out because they end up in the separate accounts.
Are you beginning to grasp this yet, Dave?
I'll assume Dean's momentary silence is because he is busy or he is typing ... so I'll take Jack's post and assume for the moment that it reflects Dean's view (Dean ... punch Jack if I'm wrong, not me, OK?) ...

What's the problem with 40 vs. 150 days? The 40 days refers to the "Inundation Phase" of the Flood (you know ... rain, fountains of the deep breaking up, super volcanoes, tsunamis, etc.) (See 7:12) The 150 days refers to how long the waters covered the earth. Can you see that when all the cataclysmic events stopped, the water didn't just vanish ... presto? It took quite a while for everything to settle out again.

As for the 2 vs. 14 animals, could you be more specific? What's the problem?
And another Biblical literalist is proved to be nothing of the kind.
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Old 09-26-2007, 08:13 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by VoxRat View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by afdave
Oh? How so? Where are the inconsistencies in the Flood account? Where are the contradictions?


Quote:
His splitting of the flood account leaves the usual problems in the text (were there two of each clean animal, or fourteen? were the waters on the earth for 40 days or 150 days? and so on...) which the DH takes out because they end up in the separate accounts.
Please explain what problems you see and why they are problems?
note the part highlighted in red? Just f'rinstance.
Of course, maybe it's just my parochial occidental thinking that sees an inconsistency in 2 = 14, and in 40 = 150. Perhaps, if I were sufficiently attuned to oriental thinking, that would make perfect sense.

Quote:
What's the problem with 40 vs. 150 days? The 40 days refers to the "Inundation Phase" of the Flood
It does? Where does it do that? Not in the text.
Quote:
As for the 2 vs. 14 animals, could you be more specific? What's the problem?
wtf?
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Old 09-26-2007, 08:13 AM   #323
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You picked the Flood Story and divided it up according to the DH. What basis do you have for doing so? What do you see wrong with the Tablet Theory divsion of the Flood story?
Pick up Friedman's "Who wrote the Bible" and read the introduction. There he lays out the development that started in the 11th century and produced the DH in the 19th century.
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Old 09-26-2007, 08:14 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless View Post
I'll just repost this bit:

I'll try to clarify by using bold:

...Hmmm. Perhaps this would help:
Quote:
His splitting of the flood account leaves the usual problems in the text (were there two of each clean animal, or fourteen? were the waters on the earth for 40 days or 150 days? and so on...) which the DH takes out because they end up in the separate accounts.
Are you beginning to grasp this yet, Dave?
You know, for an engineer, Dave's math skills don't seem to be any better than his biblical "scholarship." He apparently is not aware that two is a different number than fourteen, or that 40 is a different number than 150. Maybe he thinks that it's only our "occidentalist" approach to texts that makes us think there are differences between two and fourteen and 40 and 150. Maybe he thinks that from an "orientalist" perspective, there isn't any distinction.
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Old 09-26-2007, 08:21 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by afdave View Post
What's the problem with 40 vs. 150 days? The 40 days refers to the "Inundation Phase" of the Flood (you know ... rain, fountains of the deep breaking up, super volcanoes, tsunamis, etc.) (See 7:12) The 150 days refers to how long the waters covered the earth. Can you see that when all the cataclysmic events stopped, the water didn't just vanish ... presto? It took quite a while for everything to settle out again.
Where do you get that out of the text, Dave? There's nothing in the Bible that distinguishes between "inundation phase" and "recovery phase," or whatever you want to call it. You're "assuming" things that are not actually in the text. It's what someone in my line of work might call "assuming facts not in evidence, your honor."

Quote:
As for the 2 vs. 14 animals, could you be more specific? What's the problem?
You're joking, right?
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Old 09-26-2007, 08:31 AM   #326
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Dave, the "Book of Enoch" (usually refering to 1 Enoch) is a pseudepigraphal dating from the 2nd century BCE. Didn't you know this?!!!!
Some of Enoch dates to this time; other portions were written earlier or later. See this chart, which is based on the work of John J. Collins and Norman K. Gottwald.
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Old 09-26-2007, 08:35 AM   #327
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Are you guys trying to say that this ...
Quote:
19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.
and this ...
Quote:
2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
are contradictory?

If so, pardon me while I fall out my chair laughing. I'll explain this in my next response to Dean after I recover.

************************************

If this is not what you are saying, then SAY what you are saying. Don't play coy games with me like Lucretius and Constant Mews who are bluffing about some link they supposedly have and I'm supposedly too stupid to find.

Just state your view clearly like an honest truth seeker should.
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Old 09-26-2007, 08:37 AM   #328
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As we have been talking about the two accounts of Noah's flood, here they are side by side. Perhaps someone might know how either tablet theories or oral traditions can account for these two distinct accounts that have been threaded together. (I have omitted some of the material, but if anyone thinks that any omission compromises the two separate accounts, please feel free to explain.)

Code:
------------------------------------|----------------------------------
                                    |
6:9b                                |  6:8
Noah was a just man and perfect in  |  But Noah found grace in the 
his generations, and Noah walked    |  eyes of the LORD.
with God.                           |  5 And God saw that the 
11 The earth also was corrupt       |  wickedness of man was great 
before God, and the earth was       |  in the earth, and that 
filled with violence.               |  every imagination of the 
12 And God looked upon the earth,   |  thoughts of his heart was 
and, behold, it was corrupt; for    |  only evil continually.
all flesh had corrupted his way     |  6 And it repented the LORD 
upon the earth.                     |  that he had made man on the 
                                    |  earth, and it grieved him 
                                    |  at his heart.
13 ¶ And God said unto Noah, The    |  7 And the LORD said, I will 
end of all flesh is come before     |  destroy man whom I have 
me; for the earth is filled with    |  created from the face of the 
violence through them; and,         |  earth; both man, and beast, 
behold, I will destroy them with    |  and the creeping thing, and  
the earth.                          |  the fowls of the air; for it 
                                    |  repenteth me that I have 
                                    |  made them.
------------------------------------|----------------------------------
                                    |
6:18b                               |  7:1
                                    |  And the LORD said unto Noah,
and thou shalt come into the ark,   |  Come thou and all thy house 
thou, and thy sons, and thy wife,   |  into the ark; 
and thy sons' wives with thee.      |  
                                    |  for thee have I seen righteous
                                    |  before me in this generation.
                                    |
                                    |  2 Of every clean beast thou 
                                    |  shalt take to thee by sevens, 
                                    |  the male and his female: 
                                    |
19 And of every living thing of     |  and of beasts that are not 
all flesh, two of every sort        |  clean by two, the male and his 
shalt thou bring into the ark, to   |  female.
keep them alive with thee; they     |  
shall be male and female.           |  
20 Of fowls after their kind, and   |  3 Of fowls also of the air by 
                                    |  sevens, the male and the 
of cattle after their kind, of      |  female; 
every creeping thing of the earth   |  
after his kind, two of every sort   |  
shall come unto thee,               |
to keep them alive.                 |  to keep seed alive upon the 
                                    |  face of all the earth.
                                    |
22 Thus did Noah; according to      |  5 And Noah did according unto 
all that God commanded him, so      |  all that the LORD commanded 
did he.                             |  him.
------------------------------------|----------------------------------
                                    |
7:11                                |
In the six hundredth year of        |  6 And Noah was six hundred 
Noah's life, in the second month,   |  years old 
the seventeenth day of the month,   |  
the same day were all the           |  
fountains of the great deep         |  when the flood of waters was 
broken up, and the windows of       |  upon the earth.
heaven were opened.                 |  
12 And the rain was upon the        |  
earth forty days and forty          |  
nights.                             |  
13 In the selfsame day entered      |  
Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and        |  7 And Noah went in, and his 
Japheth, the sons of Noah, and      |  sons, and his wife, and his 
Noah's wife, and the three wives    |  sons' wives with him, into the 
of his sons with them, into the     |  ark, 
ark;                                |
------------------------------------|----------------------------------
                                    |
21 ¶ And all flesh died that        |  22 All in whose nostrils was 
moved upon the earth,               |  the breath of life, of all 
                                    |  that was in the dry land, 
                                    |  died.
both of fowl, and of cattle, and    |  23 And every living substance 
of beast, and of every creeping     |  was destroyed which was upon 
thing that creepeth upon the        |  the face of the ground, both 
earth, and every man:               |  man, and cattle, and the 
                                    |  creeping things, and the fowl 
                                    |  of the heaven; and they were 
                                    |  destroyed from the earth: 
                                    |  and Noah only remained alive, 
                                    |  and they that were with him in 
                                    |  the ark.
------------------------------------|----------------------------------
                                    |
8:6                                 |  24 And the waters prevailed 
And it came to pass at the end      |  upon the earth an hundred and 
of forty days,                      |  fifty days.
                                    |  8:1 And God remembered Noah,..
                                    |  2 The fountains also of the 
                                    |  deep and the windows of heaven 
                                    |  were stopped, and the rain from 
                                    |  heaven was restrained;
                                    |  3 And the waters returned from 
                                    |  off the earth continually: and 
                                    |  after the end of the hundred 
                                    |  and fifty days the waters were 
                                    |  abated.
that Noah opened the window of      |  
the ark which he had made:          |
                                    |  8:7
8 And he sent forth a dove from     |  And he sent forth a raven, 
him, to see if the waters were      |  which went forth to and fro, 
abated from off the face of the     |  until the waters were dried up 
ground;                             |  from off the earth.
9 But the dove found no rest for    |
the sole of her foot,..             |
------------------------------------|----------------------------------
                                    |
13 ¶ And it came to pass in the     |
six hundredth and first year, in    |
the first month, the first day of   |
the month, the waters were dried    |
up from off the earth:              |  8:13b
                                    |  and Noah removed the covering 
14 And in the second month, on      |  of the ark, and looked, and, 
the seven and twentieth day of      |  behold, the face of the ground 
the month, was the earth dried.     |  was dry.
------------------------------------|----------------------------------
The editors were not trying to hide anything when they threaded the two accounts together. They faithfully included both accounts (just as they included two different creation accounts and three accounts of the patriarch pretending his wife was his sister in a foreign land). It was important to preserve both accounts with their differences, probably because both were considered important. The only people who have problems with this are modern punters who want simple straightforward texts that they don't really want to think about and any differences to them cause waves.


spin
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Old 09-26-2007, 08:40 AM   #329
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dave you couldn't even google a direct reference to Herodotus without specific guided assistance by others.
Don't try to play all high and mighty with your google skills after that fiasco!

And you know what?
"Just state your view clearly like an honest truth seeker would."
How about you start?
You've demonstrated you don't even know the meanings of the words you use. You've demonstrated that you wouldn't recognized clarity if it had a death grip on either of your brain cells.

Who the heck are you to present yourself as a 'truth seeker', when we've never yet seen an honest search for truth out of any of your thousands of posts on this and your prior two forums?

Pfeh. Your behavior is beneath contempt.

no hugs for thugs,
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Old 09-26-2007, 08:45 AM   #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afdave View Post
Are you guys trying to say that this ...
Quote:
19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.
and this ...
Quote:
2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
are contradictory?

If so, pardon me while I fall out my chair laughing. I'll explain this in my next response to Dean after I recover.

************************************

If this is not what you are saying, then SAY what you are saying. Don't play coy games with me like Lucretius and Constant Mews who are bluffing about some link they supposedly have and I'm supposedly too stupid to find.

Just state your view clearly like an honest truth seeker should.
Being the honest truth-seeker that I am, I'll admit that, yes, I am saying the two quoted bits are contradictory. And, while of course I cringe in anticipated embarrassment at being shown how foolish this is (and, by the way, I think it's rather cruel of you to talk about falling out of your chair laughing over my readiness to admit my naivete on this point) I have to admit, I still don't see how it's not contradictory. I look forward to your explication. (But please; be patient with this honest truth-seeker. I don't pretend to have any special training in this area.)
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