Clivedurdle

Should not all Bible translators then translate what is in front of them - ie if Paul does a mess up about Lords from the LXX the mess should be translated, not some spurious assumption about the Hebrew version.

And DC, your comments may be read as arguing for significant editing and the introduction of Christ into a non Christy original!

DCHindley

As a Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures, doesn't the Lxx generally use KURIOS (Lord) where YHWH is found in the Hebrew scriptures? While I believe there are a few occasions to the contrary, this is almost usually the case. I am not talking about the copies of Greek translations that actually wrote the Hebrew letters (with either square or paleo-Hebrew script) or something that "looked" like it (PIPI or a "digamma").

I do not think it is anything to wonder at that "Paul" might be aware of this practice and followed it himself when discussing the God of the Jews to his gentile friends. He uses the definite article with QEOS ("god") to designate "the God" as opposed to "a [pagan] god" or "divinity" in general, and KURIOS ("lord") without the definite article to designate the Jewish God by "name."

DCH

Loomis

But there is similar blunder in Romans 14:8-11. In that episode Paul cites Isaiah 45:23 to support his claim that Christ died and rose again in order to become the Lord (who exercises a lordship) over the dead and the living.
If we were to argue that Paul was aware of the divine name in Isaiah 45:23 then that would…

1. Break the connection between Christ's lordship over the "living and dead" and the lordship of the "Lord" over "every knee and every tongue".
   
   
2. Break the connection between Christ "coming to life" in order to become Lord over everyone and Christians who "live for the Lord".
   
   
3. Break the connection between the "Lord" who declares, "As I live" and Christ who has come to "life" in order to be "Lord".
   
   
4. Rob the use of verbal kurieuó "to be Lord" of the meaning it gains from its context.

The use of the verbal form shows that it's not a simple substitution of Yahweh.

Paul was clueless. He thought it said "lord" and he thought it meant lord.

DCHindley

Indeed it does.

The no longer participating and dearly missed Ben Smith has my analysis of the pauline letters buried in his Text Excavation website at:
http://www.textexcavation.com/dch.html

DCH

Loomis

That’s very interesting. But how does it support the position that Paul was aware of Yahweh in Joel 2:32?

It doesn’t really fix the issue at hand. Does it?

Loomis

I just realized you’re from Newton Falls.

I grew up in Warren.

DCHindley

You are obsessed with the "proper name"

Rom 13:6 He who observes the day, observes it in honor of the LORD. He also who eats, eats in honor of the LORD, since he gives thanks to the God; while he who abstains, abstains in honor of the LORD and gives thanks to the God. 7 None of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 - 9 [...]. 10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of the God; 11 for it is written, "As I live, says (the) LORD, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to the God." (Is 49:18; 45:23) 12 So each of us shall give account of himself to the God.

Here I have italicized English definite articles that are NOT in the Greek, and made bold those that I have added to English to indicate that they exist in the Greek but did not get translated into English of the RSV. In these cases where KURIOS is anarthrous (no "the") I also capitalized the LORD to show it is a substitute for God's name. I am sorry, I do not see how NOT to understand all these to clearly refer to the God of the Jews, substituting an anarthrous KURIOS ("lord") for God's name.

Now those Christ passages:

8 If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord; so then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living

All these "lords" are with the definite article (both in Greek and in English) except the last, where he is again clearly referring to the function (master) and not the title. They refer to Jesus. This final "Lord" should be in lower case, but bible translations like to glorify Jesus Christ.

This whole passage (vs 8-9) attempts to change the subject of the rest of the passage, which clearly is all about God (the god of the Jews), to refer to Jesus. One of the many reasons I attribute the Christ passages to an editor.

DCH

Loomis

That’s very interesting. But how does it support the position that Paul was aware of Yahweh in Isaiah 45:23?

It doesn’t really fix the issue at hand. Does it?

As I live, says (the) LORD, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to the God.

The stuff about ‘the God’ is not found in the Masoretic Text or the Dead Sea Scrolls. It’s unique to Isaiah 45:23 LXX. Once again that favors the view the Paul was getting his material from the LXX.

If the translators of the LXX wanted to convey the idea that the knees will bow to the same divinity that receives praise, then those translators would have benefited by adhering to a consistent naming convention.

Right?

But they didn't.

Right?

Why didn’t they just leave it like it was?

Why did they append the stuff about ‘the God?’ :constern01:

What were they trying to say?

Were they deliberately trying to introduce confusion?

Or were they opening up the door for a god-man?

And as aa5874 might ask; based on the text why should Paul be expected to assume that (the) LORD and the God are the same character?

arnoldo

I'm sure you believe there is an issue in the first place that needs to be fixed. I've known some college english professors who've been a bit pedantic about semantics but this takes the cake.
The following is Isaiah 45:23 from the Masoretic Text;

and the following is from the Qumran Isaiah Scroll;

Are you seriously stating that there is a major theological difference between the above texts and the LXX?:huh:

Solo

1. Look, I really don't know what to say to you. There is no "break" that I can see.
   
   1 Cor 3:23...you are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
   
   Paul formulates a theopathic model which asserts a new divine entity between man and God. This divine "son" is firmly linked to God and subordinated to him (1 Cor 15:28). That Paul transfers in his scenario God's title and some of the executive power which was previously God's and his alone, or that he even redirects some OT scriptural references to the supreme Lord to point to Christ should not be at all surprising or, in and of itself, a cause for inquiry into either his grasp of of the texts or to the honesty of his belief. Sorry, but I can't help you.
   
   Jiri
   
   
   
   Quote:

   Break the connection between Christ "coming to life" in order to become Lord over everyone and Christians who "live for the Lord". Break the connection between the "Lord" who declares, "As I live" and Christ who has come to "life" in order to be "Lord". Rob the use of verbal kurieuó "to be Lord" of the meaning it gains from its context.