exile

But surely he knew he would be resurrected and would ascend to heaven - something that none of us know (we can at best hope for it).

And anyway the concept of the trinity muddies the waters considerably, as Jesus is not God's "son" or a normal human being in any meaningful sense. The logical conclusion that God sacrifices himself, not his son, and as an immortal being this sacrifice has no meaning.

Carin Nel

No.
I'm saying don't critisize God or judge His actions, because we were not given the authority to judge. The Word will be our judge.
Let me explain:-
Let us look at the word “critic” ( Greek= ”kriticos”) Heb. 4:12. This is the origin of the word. It means “able to judge” or “ skilled in judging”; and then , simply, “a judge”, but always with the idea of his ability to judge. It occurs only in Heb. 4:12, where it is translated “a discerner.” The whole passage relates both to the written word which is a sword (Eph. 6:17); and to the living Word (Christ) who has a sword.
The structure of the two verses distinguishes between God and His word:-
A 12. -. GOD it is whose Word is so wonderful.
B -12. -. What His Word IS (living, powerful, and a sharp sword)
C -12-. What His Word DOES (piercing and dividing asunder, etc.)
B – 12-. What His Word IS ( a skilful judge).
A 13. GOD it is who is omniscient.
Here we have in A and A, God the omniscient one; and in B, C, and B we have His Word. And we learn that the Word of God is a judge now, so wonderful that it distinguishes between the thoughts and intentions of the heart and judges them.
The Lord Himself bears witness that the same Word will be our judge hereafter – John 12: 48, “He that rejects Me, and receives not my words, hath one that judges him; the Word which I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day”
Man dares now to take this word “critic” or “judge” which God has thus, by only using it, appropriated to His Word, and apply it to himself. And what is it that man is going to judge? This very Word of God , thus making himself the judge of that which is to judge him! If the word “kritikos” were of frequent occurrence, and used of various thngs or persons, man might perhaps be led to look on himself as a judge of some of them. But God has used it only once, and He has thus confined it to one thing – His Word. Therefore it is a daring presumption for man to transfer the word to himself. Not only does man do this, but he calls his work “higher criticism.” Now there is a criticism which is lawful, because it judges not God’s Word, but man’s work as to the manuscripts; this is called Textual Critisism, which is quite a different thing. But this “higher criticism” is nothing but human reasoning ; it is nothing more than the imagination of man’s heart- those very thoughts and intentions which the Word itself judges. What perversion for the further man’s criticism departs from the domain of evidence and enter on the sphere of reason, the “higher” he calls it! This is to say, the less like a skilled judge he acts, the higher he exalts his judgement!
The Word must either judge you now, in this day of grace, and give you conviction of sin; or it will be your judge in the last day, when every mouth will be stopped, and you will be speechless and without excuse.


Regards
Carin Nel

Carin Nel

Let us look at the Trinity. If you understand the Trinity, you will understand the sacrifice of Jesus and much more. See, it is because we don’t want to seriously study the Word of God in its deepest meaning by looking at the way God used the Hebrew and Greek languages as well as numbers in Scripture, that we are confused and come to stupid conclusions. (Numbers play a critical part in understanding the prophecies and true meaning of God’s Word).

Mark 12: 29,30, or Matt. 22:37, 38 says, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord: thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength.” The reference is to Deut. 6:4. This is “first” in order, first in time, and first in importance. This is therefore the “greatest” in necessity, in extent, and in nature. The first in the Law, and the greatest in the Law, and hence it was one of the four passages written on the phylacteries of the Jews.
The Hebrew words may be variously rendered, but the quotation of the Lord Jesus, written by the Holy Spirit n the Gospels, fixes the meaning of the words.
In the Hebrew the order is, “Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our Elohim, Jehovah One.” The Jews repeat it today thus, “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one,” and the whole congregation repeat the word “One” for several minutes. As “Elohim” is plural we might with much more reason repeat “”Eluhenǚ” for several minutes. If the Lord had not supplied the verb which fixes the meaning, then we might as well have read it as the Jews do, for this fixes (unconsciously to them) the doctrine of the Trinity. For the three Persons are named, and then it is declared that they are one: “The Lord, our God, The Lord, is one,” i.e., the three, Father, Son, and Spirit, are one. The real sense of the words, according to their meaning, is, Hear, O Israel, Jehovah (the ever-existing One) our Elohim (our Triune God), Jehovah “is one.” What is here predicated of Jehovah is not the unity of God at all, but that it is to Him that the name Jehovah rightfully belngs, that He is the one and only God, and that there can be no other. It is equally opposed to all forms of Theism and Deism, which are the creations of man’s ideas, as well as to polytheism on the one hand and national or local deities n the other. Israel alone could say, Jehovah is “our God,” because He had made Himself known – “His ways unto Moses, and His acts to the children of Israe” (Ps. Ciii. 7)
With this agrees the choice of the word Echad”, which is used for “one.” In Hebrew there are 2 words use for the number “one” (Echad), “one,” unus; and (Yacheed), “an only one,” :-One Triune God.unicus.
We also have the plural - Ehachadim (like Elohim), ones. Echad is composite. It is one of others, hence it is the word used in Deut. 6:4. Jehovah (the Father), Elohim (the Son), and Jehovah, (the Spirit) is Echad – One Triune God.

Regards
Carin Nel

Solo

Could you please be more specific about the lack of seriousness of "we" in studying "numbers" "in Scripture" ? What "meaning" is there with respect to numbers of specific objects in their usage by "God" ? It has always been my understanding that humans invented, (or if you prefer, God gave them) numbers for abstract operations on quantities, which are governed by rules of logic, not human interpretations of God's will.

Could you shed some light on this ?

Jiri Severa

Transplanar

I find it strange that unlike every other person or entity, God's actions are judged by his word, and not the other way around. Usually, one's word is judged by their actions, as "actions speak louder than words." Thus it is strange to hear how loving and benevolent God is yet he flooded the entire Earth, condemns non-believers, and has been responsible for the destruction of cities (ie Sodom and Gommora, as well as others).

As for speaking against God, your simply using scare tactics there (which I imagine were related to you by another person). Out of the people you describe died for speaking against God, there are countless others that have aparently evaded God's wrath (like, say, most of the people on this forum). I don't see why it's such a huge deal towards criticising God. Does it hurt his feelings?

Carin Nel

By "we" I refer to us humans.

It is a very difficult task to explain it in short. I don't know how long my answer may be according to the rules of this forum.
I'll try!
There is design shown in the works (universe), as well as the Word of God (The Scriptures / Bible).
There can be neither works nor words without number.
We can understand how man can act and speak without design or significance, but we cannot imagine that the great and infinite Creator and Redeemer could either work or speak without both His words or His works being absolutely perfect in every particular. “As for God His way is perfect” (Ps.xviii. 30).
“The Law of the Lord is perfect” (Ps. xix. 7). They are both perfect in power, perfect in holiness and righteousness, perfect in design, perfect in execution, perfect in their object and end, and perfect in number. All His works were (and are) done, and all His words were spoken and written, in the right way, at the right time, in the right order, and in the right number. “He tells the number of the stars” (Ps. cxlvii. 4). He “brings out their host by number” (Isa. Xl. 26). “He weighs the water by measure” (Job xxviii. 25).

In all the works of God we find not only what we call “Law”, and a Law-maker, but we observe a Law enforcer. It simply means “God in action”; God not merely giving or making laws, but carrying them out and enforcing them. As He is perfect, so His works and His Words also must be perfect.
When we see number used not by chance, but by design; not at haphazard, but with significance; then we see not merely so many works and words, but the Living God working and speaking.
When we see the same design in the works of God (the Creation) as well as in His Word (the Bible); the same laws at work; the same mysterious principles being carried out in each, the conviction is overwhelming that we have the same great Designer, the same Author; and we see the same Hand, the same seal stamped on all His works, and the same signature or autograph which may be torn off or obliterated, but indelible, like the water-mark in the paper; so impressed upon and interwoven with it that no power on earth can blot it out. We may, therefore, say with David: “I meditate on all Thy works; I muse on the works of Thy hands” (Ps. cxliii. 5).

In THE HEAVENS we see number displayed in a remarkable manner. The 12 signs of the Zodiac, each with three constellations, making 36 in all, which together with the 12 signs make a total of 48. There must be a reason, therefore, why the number 12 should thus pervade the heavens. Why should number 12 be the predominating factor? Why should it not be 11, or 13, or 7, or 20? Because 12 is one of the four perfect numbers, the number of governmental perfection; hence it is associated with the rule of the heavens, for the sun is given “to rule the day,” and the moon “to govern the night” The significance of this, will become clear when one come to consider the number “twelve”. We have thus one common measure, or factor, which is seen in the 12 signs of the Zodiac, the 36 (3x12) constellations, the total 48 (4x12); the 360˚ ( 12 x 30 ) degrees, into which the great circle of the heavens is divided. It is this division of the Zodiac which gives us the 12 months of the Zodiacal year. This called also the Prophetic year, for it is the year which is used in the prophecies of the Bible. (There are different or relative kinds of years, according as we reckon the revolutions of the sun in relation to certain objects.
The above, then, is an example of number as it is used in the heavens. Twelve is the pervading factor.

In CHRONOLOGY we find that the first natural division of time is stamped by the number seven. On the seventh day God rested from His work of Creation. When He ordained the ritual for Israel which should show forth His work of Redemption, seven is again stamped upon it in all its times and seasons. The seventh day was the holy day; the seventh month was specially hallowed by its number of sacred festivals; the seventh year was the marked year of Jubilee (Lev. Xxv. 4, 8). There are much more examples!

If we look at NATURE we see the same law at work in various departments of nature. Sometimes one number is the dominant factor, sometimes another. In nature seven is found to mark the only possible mode of classification of the mass of individuals which constitutes the special departments called science.
There are the 7 divisions from the animal and vegetable kingdoms, e.g. I. Kingdom, II. Sub-Kingdom, III. Class. IV. Order, V. Family, VI. Genus, VII. Species.
We find the same laws at work in PHYSIOLOGY, CHEMISTRY,SOUND AND MUSIC, and COLOUR . The list of examples is never-ending and VERY interesting.

NUMBERS IN SCRIPTURE:

The Word of God is the greatest and most important of all God’s works. Here we find numbers used not only with the same wondrous design, but, here, with significance also. If there be design, there must be significance. In Dan. Viii. 13 a revelation of a specific future event was made to Daniel, by a certain saint or holy one, i.e. , a holy angel; and “another” angel asked a question concerning numbers – “How long,” etc.? The name of “that certain saint” is given in the Hebrew, and is laced in the margin, with its meaning. His name is “PALMONI”, and it means, “the number of secrets, or the wonderful numberer.” So we see that numbers and their secrets holds an important place in the words as well as in the works of God. “A wonderful numberer” (Palmoni) presides over them, and has his place in making known the things of God. This certainly looks like design; and, if so-if not only the “days” in which revealed events take place are numbered, but the words” also themselves are numbered- then we have a great and wondrous proof of the Divine, verbal, and even literal inspiration of the Word of God.
“It is the glory of God to conceal a thing; but the honour of kings to search out the matter” (Prov. Xxv. 2)
We can have neither words nor works without “number". The question which we have to answer is- Is numbers used with design or by chance? Surely if God uses it, it must be with infinite wisdom and with glorious perfection. And so it is.
Each number has its own significance; and its meaning is found to be in moral harmony and relation to the subject matter in connection with which it stands. This harmony is always perfect. Every word of God’s Book is in its right place.
There are many facts which show a manifest design pervading the whole Bible, by which various agents, writing at different intervals, and thus separated both by place, and time, and circumstance, are yet made to use certain words a definite number of times. The actual number depends upon the special significance of the word; for the significance of the word corresponds with the significance of the number of times it occurs. When there is a general importance in the word, apart from its direct significance, then the word occurs according to law. All such general and important words- i.e., such words on which the Holy Spirit would have us place special emphasis, or would wish us to lay special stress-occur a certain number of times. These are either- (i) a square number, or (ii) a cube, or (iii) a multiple of seven, or (iv) a multiple of eleven.
It is interesting to notice why these numbers should be thus associated together. They are significant in themselves, for seven is one of the four so-called perfect numbers, 3, 7, 10 and 12.
3 is the number of Divine perfection; 7 is Spiritual perfection; 10 is Ordinal perfection and 12 is Governmental perfection.
The product of these four perfect numbers forms the great number of chronological perfection. 3 x 7 x 10 x 12 = 2520, the times of Israel’s punishment, and the times of Gentile dominion over Jerusalem.
The association of the numbers 11 and 7 connects this arithmetical law with the geometrical, and calls our attention to the phenomina presented by the sides of the four primary rectilineal forms-
In the plane,the triangle has 3 sides, and the square has 4 sides , which equals a total of 7


In the solid, the pyramid has 5 sides, the cube has 6 sides, which makes a total of 11.

The number 18 (the sum of these), 7+11) in Scripture and in nature is usually thus divided into 7 and 11, or 9 and 9.
As 7 is to 11, so is the height of the pyramid (whose base is a square) to the length of its base.
As 7 is to 11 expresses also the ratio between the diameter of a circle and its semi-circumference; or between a semi-circle and its chord. ETC. ETC !

In the Scripture , the Old and New Testament, we find numbers working according to this law. In the works of God numbers are used always in perfect order. The same order is found in His Word. Each number has its own peculiar significance and when we consider the same phenomena with regards to all the numbers as they are used in the different books of the whole Bible (Old and New Testament books) the evidence is overwhelming i.e., as to the so-called Pauline authorship of the Epistle to the Hebrews. Without it, the Epistles of St. Paul are only thirteen in number, with it they are 14 (2x7). This principle governs the occurrences and use of words.
We may take, in the same way, both the Old and New Testaments together, and see how marvellously 36 writers so use their words that when all are taken together we find the same law at work! This should be absolutely impossible if “one and the self-same Spirit” had not inspired the whole so as to produce such a harmonious result.
Examples: 2 2
“Hallelujah”: 24 times in Psalms (2 x 6) and 4 times in Revelation (2 ) which gives a total
2
of 28 ( 2 x 7 ).



“Christ spoken of at the right hand of God”: O.T. 2 (Ps. cx. 1, 5) and the N.T. 19 which gives a total of 21 (3 x 7)




“Thou shall love thy neighbour as thyself”: O.T. (Lev. Xix. 18) and the N.T. 6 which totals 7.


Neither Moses nor any other person could have secured the above results. Moses used a certain word by Divine inspiration, not knowing, in all probability, how many times he had used it. It is inconceivable that, even had he known, he could have told Joshua how many times he was to use it; and that Joshua could have arranged with another; and that this could have gone on for fifteen centuries and ensured that the last writer should use the word only a certain definite number of times so as to secure a particular result. No, each writer must have been ignorant as to this final result; but each wrote “as he was moved by the Holy Spirit”; and hence, each contributed such a part as should end in perfecting the original design.
This sweeps away as with a flood, all the puny attempts of man either in attacking or defending the inspiration of the Word of God; for the word has suffered almost as much from unwise defences of its friends, as from the malignant attacks of its enemies.
Instead of making the Bible agree with science, science must agree with the Bible. If it does not, it is only because it is “science falsely so-called.” And not real science.
Scientia is the Latin word for knowledge. Whereas very much of what goes by the name of “science” to-day is not science at all. It is only hypothesis. In Science books we usually find words such as “hypothesis”, “conjecture”, “supposition”, etc. This is the reason that such theories, which are falsely dignified by the name of science, are constantly changing. We talk abut the “Science of Geology”, or of “Medical Science”; but those books of fifty years ago are now “out of date.”
But truth will never be “out of date”. What we know can never alter. This of itself proves that the word science is wrongly used when it is applied only to hypotheses, which are merely invented to explain certain phenomena. It is not for such theories that we are going to give up facts. It is not for conjectures that we are going to abandon truth. In the Bible we have got something certain and something perfect. Every fact and truth which is discovered only helps to prove its truth and to exhibit its perfection . It may seem very clever, very daring , very wise, for man to criticise the Word of God, but it is still true, as it is written (I Cor. iii. 19) “The wisdom of this world is foolishness with God”
Jesus himself said (Mat. Xxii. 29), “Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures”

Regards
Carin Nel

Toto

:banghead:

Please tell me that you can see the problem with this statement. (Hint - what is a constellation? Does is represent a structure in the sky or a human mental construct?)

Carin Nel

There are other modern constellations now: Hevelius (1611-1687) added twenty-two; Haley (1656-1742) added 14. But every one knows how different these are from the ancient constellations, both in their names, their character, and their absence of all significance.


Regards
Carin Nel

Amaleq13

In that they are all artificial constructs of human imagination, they are all alike.

Carin Nel

Not true. The ancient constellations are mentioned by God in His word, perfect in number and significance. They are hardly "artificial constructs of human imagination", but are God's own idea and handiwork.
Regards
Carin Nel