Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Solo · 06-03-2008, 02:42 PM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

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Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

What credible source has information to show that Jesus was a drifter? And nothing can be known of person if nothing is written or heard about that person.

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And Jesus said to him "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head."

Luke 9:58/Matthew 8:20

(You may not regard this as a credible source, but I thought it worth mentioning.)

Andrew Criddle

Jesus said a lot of crazy stuff in the NT. I don't consider the words of Jesus credible unless I can find some external corroboration.

That's as good as it gets. J.D.Crossan underwrote this as the only authentic Q saying of Jesus.

Jiri

Half-Life · 06-03-2008, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

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Originally Posted by aa5874

Jesus said a lot of crazy stuff in the NT. I don't consider the words of Jesus credible unless I can find some external corroboration.

Leaving aside the question of whether Jesus' saying at Lk. 9:58//Mt. 8:20 is "crazy stuff", do you use this same criterion when you are dealing with the words of any other historical figure whose words are not attested outside of one source or outside of patently "apologetic" sources?

And will you ever grace us with you definition of, and criterion for determining what is and is not, "credible".

Jeffrey

No, we don't do it for everyone because most people are written about during their lifetimes.

Jesus' sayings and words are attributed to him 30-35 years AFTER his death. Unless the people back then had picture perfect photographic memories, I don't see how ANYONE can claim with a straight face that Jesus' sayings are authentic.

Jeffrey Gibson · 06-03-2008, 02:52 PM

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Originally Posted by kbrown45

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Tacitus Annals 15.44

http://www.christianism.com/html/add36aa.html#1789

from: "to the path breaker J.W. Ross (1878)", THE ANNALS OF POGGIO BRACCIOLINI AND OTHER FORGERIES, LOUIS PARET. Augustin S.A. 75018 Paris, Pb., 1992 [1995?], Numero d'Imprimeur 2-907 179-17-9 [my copy, is the only copy I have encountered (no copy in the University of California system)]. [See: 1690]. [Note: many misspellings, etc. (most are noted). Translation, etc., problems?].

I wonder if you have anything more recent (and less biased) than this 130 year old "study" that "shows" -- and is accepted by contemporary Classicists as actually showing -- that the Annals have been interpolated?

More importantly, and assuming I'm reading you correctly, why do you consider this work to be authoritative? Why should we take its conclusions as valid?

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson · 06-03-2008, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Leaving aside the question of whether Jesus' saying at Lk. 9:58//Mt. 8:20 is "crazy stuff", do you use this same criterion when you are dealing with the words of any other historical figure whose words are not attested outside of one source or outside of patently "apologetic" sources?

And will you ever grace us with you definition of, and criterion for determining what is and is not, "credible".

Jeffrey

No, we don't do it for everyone because most people are written about during their lifetimes.

Really? Can you show that this is actually the case for most of the figures from the ancient world who are presumed to be historical, let alone who have only one source or only "apologetic" sources which attest to what they said? Is it the case, for instance with the sayings attributed to the ancient figures we know about primarily/only from Plutarch or from Livy or from Apollodorus or from Herodotus, among other ancient historians and biographers?

And may I ask what the nature and extent of your familiarity with ancient biographical literature and historiography actually is?

Jeffrey

Solitary Man · 06-03-2008, 04:17 PM

So, its ok when you make the comparison to creationism, Toto, but not for anyone else? When did it become an attack to compare methods? Oh yeah, when it gets too close for your comfort, that's when.

Half-Life · 06-03-2008, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

No, we don't do it for everyone because most people are written about during their lifetimes.

Really? Can you show that this is actually the case for most of the figures from the ancient world who are presumed to be historical, let alone who have only one source or only "apologetic" sources which attest to what they said? Is it the case, for instance with the sayings attributed to the ancient figures we know about primarily/only from Plutarch or from Livy or from Apollodorus or from Herodotus, among other ancient historians and biographers?

And may I ask what the nature and extent of your familiarity with ancient biographical literature and historiography actually is?

Jeffrey

No. If we had some writings that claimed Thomas Jefferson was driving demons out of people and sending them into pigs, we would look for evidence. If we found none, we can conclude it's pretty stupid nonsense.

Look at alien abductions today. Many people SWEAR and would DIE for the fact that they were abducted by aliens. Many people say they have videos of aliens. Yet, despite all this, we still have no real evidence of aliens. Do you believe in alien abductions because people claim they have been abducted? Obviously not because you need evidence.

Now, where's the evidence Jesus died and came back to life, said everything he said, walked on water, turned water in wine, split the temple in half during his crucifixion, and had saints get out of their graves and walk around the city greeting people when jesus bit the big one?

It sounds so stupid I don't know HOW anyone can take it seriously. It's just as dumb as thinking you will have 72 virgins in Heaven or that everyone is reincarnated.

Do you believe every religion simply because they have claims?

I would also expect the all-powerful, omnipotent timeless God of the universe to be able to write about his own life while he was living on Earth. Jesus made the whole universe but he can't get some manuscripts and write down shit?

Unless God is the dumbest person that exists, there's really no excuse for the lack of evidence.

Jeffrey Gibson · 06-03-2008, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Really? Can you show that this is actually the case for most of the figures from the ancient world who are presumed to be historical, let alone who have only one source or only "apologetic" sources which attest to what they said? Is it the case, for instance with the sayings attributed to the ancient figures we know about primarily/only from Plutarch or from Livy or from Apollodorus or from Herodotus, among other ancient historians and biographers?

And may I ask what the nature and extent of your familiarity with ancient biographical literature and historiography actually is?

Jeffrey

No. If we had some writings that claimed Thomas Jefferson was driving demons out of people and sending them into pigs, we would look for evidence. If we found none, we can conclude it's pretty stupid nonsense.

Look at alien abductions today. Many people SWEAR and would DIE for the fact that they were abducted by aliens. Many people say they have videos of aliens. Yet, despite all this, we still have no real evidence of aliens. Do you believe in alien abductions because people claim they have been abducted? Obviously not because you need evidence.

Now, where's the evidence Jesus died and came back to life, said everything he said, walked on water, turned water in wine, split the temple in half during his crucifixion, and had saints get out of their graves and walk around the city greeting people when jesus bit the big one?

It sounds so stupid I don't know HOW anyone can take it seriously. It's just as dumb as thinking you will have 72 virgins in Heaven or that everyone is reincarnated.

Do you believe every religion simply because they have claims?

I would also expect the all-powerful, omnipotent timeless God of the universe to be able to write about his own life while he was living on Earth. Jesus made the whole universe but he can't get some manuscripts and write down shit?

Unless God is the dumbest person that exists, there's really no excuse for the lack of evidence.

Thanks for not answering any of the particular questions I asked you.

Since experience shows that red herrings like the ones you've posted above are produced when people don't want to show that they don't know what they are talking about, and have no evidence to back up their claims, I now have a pretty good idea of just how seriously I should take what you say about what people did and did not do in the ancient world, as well as what the nature and extent of your grounding in, and familiarity with, ancient biographical literature and historiography actually is.

Thanks for clarifying.

Jeffrey

Solitary Man · 06-03-2008, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

No. If we had some writings that claimed Thomas Jefferson was driving demons out of people and sending them into pigs, we would look for evidence. If we found none, we can conclude it's pretty stupid nonsense.

Really? Pretty stupid nonsense? Perhaps you would categorize that as such, but that's an objective category. We could, however, conclude that there is no evidence for Jefferson's actions. But that has no bearing on whether or not Jefferson the man actually existed.

Quote:

Now, where's the evidence Jesus died and came back to life, said everything he said, walked on water, turned water in wine, split the temple in half during his crucifixion, and had saints get out of their graves and walk around the city greeting people when jesus bit the big one?

Where did Jeffrey ever say there was any evidence of this?

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Unless God is the dumbest person that exists, there's really no excuse for the lack of evidence.

Excellent insight! Now all those Christians will certainly change their minds.

Half-Life · 06-03-2008, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

No. If we had some writings that claimed Thomas Jefferson was driving demons out of people and sending them into pigs, we would look for evidence. If we found none, we can conclude it's pretty stupid nonsense.

Look at alien abductions today. Many people SWEAR and would DIE for the fact that they were abducted by aliens. Many people say they have videos of aliens. Yet, despite all this, we still have no real evidence of aliens. Do you believe in alien abductions because people claim they have been abducted? Obviously not because you need evidence.

Now, where's the evidence Jesus died and came back to life, said everything he said, walked on water, turned water in wine, split the temple in half during his crucifixion, and had saints get out of their graves and walk around the city greeting people when jesus bit the big one?

It sounds so stupid I don't know HOW anyone can take it seriously. It's just as dumb as thinking you will have 72 virgins in Heaven or that everyone is reincarnated.

Do you believe every religion simply because they have claims?

I would also expect the all-powerful, omnipotent timeless God of the universe to be able to write about his own life while he was living on Earth. Jesus made the whole universe but he can't get some manuscripts and write down shit?

Unless God is the dumbest person that exists, there's really no excuse for the lack of evidence.

Thanks for not answering any of the particular questions I asked you.

Since experience shows that red herrings like the ones you've posted above are produced when people don't want to show that they don't know what they are talking about, and have no evidence to back up their claims, I now have a pretty good idea of just how seriously I should take what you say about what people did and did not do in the ancient world, as well as what the nature and extent of your grounding in, and familiarity with, ancient biographical literature and historiography actually is.

Thanks for clarifying.

Jeffrey

So you DO believe everything anyone says?

I pointed out many things people believe without evidence. Why is it such a big deal when the same skepticism is applied to Jesus? It's like Jesus has some "do not doubt" forcefield around him, but people who have been abducted by aliens are OK to doubt and call nonsense?

Half-Life · 06-03-2008, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solitary Man

Excellent insight! Now all those Christians will certainly change their minds.

OK, so why was Jesus able to create a whole universe, but couldn't muster up a simple manuscript with his message? :huh:

if I told you the flying spaghetti monster visited earth 30 years ago, you'd laugh at me. You'd ask why no one wrote that they saw the monster during his time on Earth, and why he didn't write anything down if he had such a great message.

But, when this same logic is applied to Jesus, it becomes stupid?

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06-03-2008, 04:17 PM	#95
Solitary Man Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: ירושלים Posts: 1,701	So, its ok when you make the comparison to creationism, Toto, but not for anyone else? When did it become an attack to compare methods? Oh yeah, when it gets too close for your comfort, that's when.

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