Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 03-14-2009, 09:53 AM

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the Sons of Light and the Sons of Darkness

Did I mention gnostics?

The description we have of the essenes is correct and true - it has been replicated with the Albigensians who had very similar beliefs.

How can something be an invention when I can point to a very similar set of beliefs and attitudes? And both using Zarathustran metaphors.

And just because it mentions one of the parties does not mean it was written by that party!

Clivedurdle · 03-14-2009, 09:57 AM

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Catharism was a name given to a Christian religious sect with dualistic and gnostic elements that appeared in the Languedoc region of France in the 11th century and flourished in the 12th and 13th centuries. Catharism had its roots in the Paulician movement in Armenia and the Bogomils of Bulgaria with whom the Paulicians merged. They also became influenced by dualist and, perhaps, Manichaean beliefs.
Like many medieval movements, there were various schools of thought and practice amongst the Cathari; some were dualistic, others Gnostic, some closer to orthodoxy while abstaining from an acceptance of Catholic doctrines. The dualist theology was the most prominent, however, and was based upon the complete incompatibility of love and power. As matter was seen as a manifestation of power, it was also incompatible with love. They did not believe in one all-encompassing god, but in two, both equal and comparable in status. They held that the physical world was evil and created by Rex Mundi (translated from Latin as "king of the world"), who encompassed all that was corporeal, chaotic and powerful; the second god, the one whom they worshipped, was entirely disincarnate: a being or principle of pure spirit and completely unsullied by the taint of matter. He was the god of love, order and peace.

According to some Cathars, the purpose of man's life on Earth was to transcend matter, perpetually renouncing anything connected with the principle of power and thereby attained union with the principle of love. According to others, man's purpose was to reclaim or redeem matter, spiritualizing and transforming it.

This placed them at odds with the Catholic Church in regarding material creation, on behalf of which Jesus had supposedly died, as intrinsically evil and implying that God, whose word had created the world in the beginning, was a usurper. Furthermore, as the Cathars saw matter as intrinsically evil, they denied that Jesus could become incarnate and still be the son of God. Cathars vehemently repudiated the significance of the Crucifixion and the Cross. In fact, to the Cathars, Rome's opulent and luxurious church seemed a palpable embodiment and manifestation on Earth of Rex Mundi's sovereignty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathars

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(76) These men, in the first place, live in villages, avoiding all cities on account of the habitual lawlessness of those who inhabit them, well knowing that such a moral disease is contracted from associations with wicked men, just as a real disease might be from an impure atmosphere, and that this would stamp an incurable evil on their souls. Of these men, some cultivating the earth, and others devoting themselves to those arts which are the result of peace, benefit both themselves and all those who come in contact with them, not storing up treasures of silver and of gold, nor acquiring vast sections of the earth out of a desire for ample revenues, but providing all things which are requisite for the natural purposes of life;

(77) for they alone of almost all men having been originally poor and destitute, and that too rather from their own habits and ways of life than from any real deficiency of good fortune, are nevertheless accounted very rich, judging contentment and frugality to be great abundance, as in truth they are.

Philo

Clivedurdle · 03-14-2009, 10:08 AM

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Vegetarian Essenes? Volume 52 Number 3, May/June 1999 by Spencer P.M. Harrington Twenty-eight spartan dwellings on the edge of the Ein Gedi oasis in southern Israel may have been the home of a community of Essenes, the Jewish sect thought by some to have collected the Dead Sea Scrolls. While no inscriptions have been found positively linking the site to the group, its proximity to the village of Ein Gedi a mile away is grounds for assuming that its inhabitants belonged to the same community, says Yitzhar Hirschfeld of Hebrew University, the site's excavator. Descriptions of the Essenes by ancient authors such as Pliny the Elder "fit the character of the site," he says. Another clue is the presence of a mikveh, or Jewish ritual bath.
The Essenes are thought to have flourished between the second century B.C. and the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem by the Romans in A.D. 70. Ancient sources describe them as a tightly knit group of men, possibly celibate, who practiced communal ownership of property. "The people who lived here worked the fields of the oasis," says Hirschfeld, who suspects that the site was a permanent, rather than seasonal, settlement. The dwellings were built for one person only and measure six by nine feet. They appear to have been occupied twice, in the first and early second centuries A.D., and between the fourth and sixth centuries. Three larger buildings possibly had a communal use; one, likely a kitchen, had three stoves and a thick layer of ash on the floor.
While the site yielded a fairly rich collection of pottery vessels, glass sherds, and seven coins from the early Roman and Byzantine eras, it is most remarkable for its lack of animal bones. "Although we worked carefully, sifting everything, we didn't find any," says Hirschfeld, adding that the settlers might have been vegetarian. Although Josephus noted that the dietary restrictions of the Essenes were stringent, the nearby village appears not to have been bound by vegetarianism. "We've found 4,000 animal bones in the village of Ein Gedi," he notes. Judaism has historically advocated vegetarianism only occasionally for ascetic reasons or during periods of mourning. Excavations will continue in the winter of 2000.

© 1999 by the Archaeological Institute of America
www.archaeology.org/9905/newsbriefs/vege.html

http://www.archaeology.org/9905/newsbriefs/vege.html

mountainman · 03-14-2009, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

the Sons of Light and the Sons of Darkness

Did I mention gnostics?

The description we have of the essenes is correct and true - it has been replicated with the Albigensians who had very similar beliefs.

Philo took pains to differentiate the smaller group of "Essenes" from the large and extended group of "Therapeutae". We have abundant archaeology for the latter, and none that I am aware of for the former. Could we have backed the wrong horse in this race? That the gnostics followed the way of the Therapeutae and not the "Essenes" is clear by the way they address the equality of men and women. (See Philo).

Clivedurdle · 03-15-2009, 03:50 AM

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2. "Hypothetica" (or "Apology for the Jews") -- not known directly but from
quotations by the early Christian writer Eusebius (4th century). Possibly
this account of the Essenes was written earlier than the other.

Some characteristics of Essenes claimed in both works: the name denotes
their piety (Greek, hosios); they are older men, without children, not
holding property or slaves, pooling resources, engaged in agriculture and
crafts, common meals, care for their sick, with a structured community for
resource distributation. Both accounts end with stating that even the
worst tyranical rulers held esteem for the Essenes.

Of special interest in Hypothetica:
Live in many cities and villages of Judea. Even clothing is shared.
Occupations include herds and bee keeping.

Of special interest in EGMF: They live only in villages, not in cities, in
Syro-Palestine; about 4000 in number; they don't sacrifice living animals;
they manufacture some products, but not weapons; nature is their parent;
they meet every 7 days in synagogues (note Philo's usually does not use
the term synagogue but does so for Essenes) to read and interpret
scriptures; they refuse to take oaths.

Something to think about: No weapons used but apparently some medicine.
The "Fallen Angels" in some traditions taught people how to use herbs and
how to make weapons. Is this significant? Let's watch for how weapons are
treated in the War Scroll (1QM). Also, one of the ancient sources mentions
that some Essenes travel armed, for protection. Note also that Philo does
not place the Essenes in only one location (community).

2. Josephus

Two main sources
1. Jewish War - written probably in the late 70s ce.
2. Antiquities - written around 100 c.e.

Wants reader to believe that he writes about such things from personal
experience. Claims in "Vita" (autobiographical defense) that he had tried
out all three major sects as a youth. Even went to live in the wilderness
with someone named Banus. Even before the DSS were discovered, J. Thomas
(in French) argued that there were various "baptizing movements" in
Syro-palesting at this time, of which Banus might have been an example.

War 2.120-161:
Describes all three sects (Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes) and in the
process glorifies Essenes and trashes the Sadducees. Also says there is a
subset of Essenes that marry. Never claims the Essenes are only in one
place, but mentions that they reside in many cities.

Antiquities 13.172: Distinguishes the "sects" in terms of their views of
fate. Antiquities 18.18ff: Sketches life of Essenes: God in charge of
destiny, soul is immortal, have disputes with temple in Jerusalem, engage
in agriculture, pool resources, have own priests, no wives, own no slaves,
number about 4,000 (Philo also mentions this, a common source is
possible). In mentioning relationship with the temple he does not mention
that the temple has already been destroyed -- perhaps he is referring to
an earlier standard account from before 70 ce.

3. Pliny Source: "Natural History" -- written about 77 ce (see Vanderkam
72). "Natural History" kind of like a travel guide for Palestine and other
areas. Essenes described as: No women, no money, just palm trees. Pick up
refugees and people who are tired of life and looking for something
different.

Locates the Essene community on the west of the Dead Sea, with Engedi
lying "below" it. Dispute as to whether this means "to the south of" or
"down the hill from" (or something else). Sequence from Essenes to
En-gedi to Masada suggest it is "to the south of," which would be
consistent with the location of Qumran. Note that, unlike Philo and
Josephus, Pliny places Essenes strictly in one place.

Connection of Essenes to Philo's Theraputae:

As we saw last class, the Theraputae are described by Philo in "On The
Contemplative Life". He himself makes connection between his account of
the Essenes in EGMF and his account of the Theraputae. States that
Essenes are in the "service" of God and interprets "Theraputae" to mean
"servants (of God)" or also "healers (of souls)." He claims that both
groups are found in many places but he describes one main location, near
Alexandria, for the Therapeutae. His descriptions of Essenes and
Theraputae show many features in common. Thus is is possible to argue
that the Therapeutae are of the same "type" as the Essenes, and the
evidence they provide can also be used, with caution.

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/other/courses/rels/225/Minutes%20(detailed%201995)%20/Class%20%2311%20(21%20Feb%201995)%20Essenes

And the use of the term synagogue I would argue is a Eusebian anachronism.

How much stuff might Eusebius have been involved in "editing"?

Wonderful story in the Ruin of Rome of two Popes being claimants - both have left their true histories...

One of them also discovered a two hundred year old document about another Pope who had been accused of the same things as this Pope and the judgement of a former Consul at the time was that Popes are not subject to the judgements of the Synod!

See earlier part of this lecture about Zadok and Sadducees.

Clivedurdle · 03-15-2009, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Did I mention gnostics?

The description we have of the essenes is correct and true - it has been replicated with the Albigensians who had very similar beliefs.

Philo took pains to differentiate the smaller group of "Essenes" from the large and extended group of "Therapeutae". We have abundant archaeology for the latter, and none that I am aware of for the former. Could we have backed the wrong horse in this race? That the gnostics followed the way of the Therapeutae and not the "Essenes" is clear by the way they address the equality of men and women. (See Philo).

I see them as both variations on the gnostic pythagorean theme - different places will develop different dialects and practices. I would research gnostically inclined groups and see these reports as describing much the same thing - chihuahas and Great Danes are both dogs.

mountainman · 03-15-2009, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Philo took pains to differentiate the smaller group of "Essenes" from the large and extended group of "Therapeutae". We have abundant archaeology for the latter, and none that I am aware of for the former. Could we have backed the wrong horse in this race? That the gnostics followed the way of the Therapeutae and not the "Essenes" is clear by the way they address the equality of men and women. (See Philo).

I see them as both variations on the gnostic pythagorean theme

Agreed. However while the Essenes are described as restricted to a geographical domain, although the Therapeutae (annually) gather in Egypt, there were ubiquitous in and out of the empire. I have seen no academic commentary which seeks to correlate the therapeutae described by Philo and the therapeutae of Asclepius eg: Galen the physician, etc. We do know that the archaeological record substantiates the claim that the therapeutae of Asclepius were ubiquitous in the empire, therefore it seems to me reasonable to consider that Philo is speaking of the "temple servants" and "temple administratives" etc associated with the myriad of cult temples and shrines everywhere in the 1st century. Also I dont thing anything radically altered until the fourth.

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different places will develop different dialects and practices. I would research gnostically inclined groups and see these reports as describing much the same thing - chihuahas and Great Danes are both dogs.

We do not appear to have any literature written by people who considered themselves to be "Essenes". On the other hand, we do have a great deal of literature written by people who considered themselves to be "therapeutae" (of Asclepius) such as Galen.

We are instantaneously very much aware that the path of the therapeutae is non-christian. We are tantalised by the possibility that the Essenes are in fact some sort of "missing christian link", oblivious to the fact that we dont really have all much testimony from them. On the other hand, the gnostics as "therapeutae of Asclepius" make a perfectly reasonable candidate as the authors of the texts which have been unearthed at Nag Hammadi. They are Hellenistic through and through, back to Egypt, where the knowledge of the medical profession was sought by the ancient greeks in the epoch BCE, and the network of Asclepia, temples, libraries, gymnasia and shrines commenced to expand through what was to become the Roman empire.

DCHindley · 03-15-2009, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Has Philo been properly dated? Why is he talking of synagogues?

Do you mean "Why hasn't Philo been sanitized to remove elements and concepts what I object to today?"

Synagogues are well attested in literary sources even back to 1st century BCE. It is archeological evidence of them, as formal distinct buildings, that is rare as gold until the 2nd century CE. Don't forget that Herod's fortress at Masada had an identifiable synagogue, and he reigned during the latter half of the 1st century BCE.

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The Essenes read like gnostic pacifist Quakers!

If you mean how Josephus and Philo presented them, then yes, and I think that is how most modern scholars want to think of them. Contemplative hermits are less likely to have influenced the development of Christianity than if the writers of the DSS represented mainstream Judaism.

Keep in mind too that Josephus and Philo also felt compelled to sanitize Judaism to remove elements they felt would be objectionable to their Roman and other Hellenized readers, and replace them with terminology they would better relate to.

Quote:

And Elior seems not to understand the breadth of views that was and is Judaism and that the Orthodox view was only one that went around pretending it was the true one and thus corrupting the reality.

I think that was her whole point! She objects to scholarship trying to preserve an idealized image of ancient Judaism by marginalizing the writers of the DSS as Essene hermits, rather than a representative sample of average everyday unsanitized Judaism of the day.

DCH

maryhelena · 03-15-2009, 09:08 AM

I just found this link.

http://jwest.wordpress.com/2009/03/1...o-her-critics/

mountainman · 03-15-2009, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

I just found this link.

http://jwest.wordpress.com/2009/03/1...o-her-critics/

I have taken the liberty of adding numbers.

Quote:

In regard to the Essenes’ presence and absence in historical context, I would like to note the following points after a short remark

There is no need to mention one more time the well known sources on the Essenes, Philo, Pliny and Josephus who wrote about thousands of people who lived celibate life and communal life– however, there is a reason to ask the following questions in regard to their descriptions.

(1) Are any Essenes mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls? The answer is: no.

(2) Are any Essenes mentioned in this name in contemporary literature written in the Land of Israel (other then Josephus/philo/pliny written elsewhere) such as the Apocrypha, sages, or the New Testament? The answer is: no.

(3) Is it reasonable to assume that thousands of people had lived as celibates in the Land of Israel for many generations, as the well-known Greek and Latin sources suggest, while no reference to this prohibited existence, which contradicts the first biblical law of “be fruitful and multiply”, will be found in any Hebrew or Aramaic text? Is it possible that thousands of people had lived in communities of communal residence and communal money with no private property and not a word will be found about it in any Hebrew source?

(4) Is it possible to identify the Essenes, who have nothing to do with priestly laws or priestly heritage according to the descriptions of Josephus, Philo or Pliny, with the authors of The Temple Scroll, The Scroll of Priestly Watches, The Scroll of Blessings that contains blessings to the High Priest? With the Manual of Discipline and Damascus Covenant, both of which mention Bnei Zadok haKohanim (the priests the sons of Zadok)? With the Qumran Psalms scroll that details the calendar of the priestly service? With MMT or the Songs of the Sabbath Sacrifice that contains the priestly calendar?

(5) Is it possible to identify the belligerent authors of the scrolls, describing struggles and war between righteous people headed by the Priest of Justice, the head of the sons of Zadok, and evil people headed by a Wicked Priest (War Scroll, Pesher Habakkuk, Pesher Tehilim, etc.), with the peaceful Essenes?

(6) Is it possible to identify the Essenes, who are not known to have any unique calendar, with the authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls, who wrote time and again about the solar calendar of 364 days?

(7) If there ever was such a group as Essenes, what was the name of their leader in any source other than Josephus, when were they formed and why? What was the reason of their consolidation as a separate group? How does their celibate existence comply with Jewish law? How come no Jewish source comments on such a separatist group? Where are the books that were authored by the Essenes? Why there is no noun or verb or adjective in Hebrew referring to this group? where is any reference in Hebrew or Aramaic to their communal life, or thousands of years of existence?

(8) If there was such a group that its members usually lived more than hundred years (Josephus) why no one mentioned it other than Josephus?

(9) Is it not true that Philo, the first witness on the Essenes, was interested in ideal utopian communities such as the Theraputae and the Essenes? When he talks of their thousands, but is unable to specify one name, one place, one date, one event, connected with them, should we read his description as history or as utopian literature?

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03-15-2009, 09:08 AM	#19
maryhelena Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: England Posts: 2,527	I just found this link. http://jwest.wordpress.com/2009/03/1...o-her-critics/

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