Freethought & Rationalism Archive

show_no_mercy · 03-03-2009, 09:02 AM

As most of you probably know, the celebration of Hanukkah is traditionally ascribed to the Jews clearing the Temple of pagan impurities after Judaism was effectively outlawed.

But doesn't Jesus "clear the Temple" in all four gospels?

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiki

Most modern scholars argue that the king was in fact intervening in an internal civil war between the traditionalist Jews in the country and the Hellenized Jews in Jerusalem.[14][15][16] According to Joseph P. Schultz:

"Modern scholarship on the other hand considers the Maccabean revolt less as an uprising against foreign oppresion than as a civil war between the orthodox and reformist parties in the Jewish camp."[17]

These competed violently over who would be the High Priest, with traditionalists with Hebrew/Aramaic names like Onias contesting with hellenizing High Priests with Greek names like Jason and Menelaus.[18] In particular Jason's Hellenistic reforms would prove to be a decisive factor leading to eventual conflict within the ranks of Judaism.[19] Other authors point to possible socio/economic in addition to the religious reasons behind the civil war

Do you think that the gospel writers intentionally put this scene in their works to mirror the "changing of form" of Judaism from the traditional to the Hellenized? "Jesus" therefore is cleansing out the "old" Judaism and replacing it with the new, Hellenized version - Christianity.

Or do you think there's a totally, unrelated reason for Jesus clearing out the Temple in the gospels (or do you think it actually happened)?

Vincent Guilbaud · 03-03-2009, 08:07 PM

show_no_mercy asked:

Quote:

Do you think that the gospel writers intentionally put this scene in their works to mirror the "changing of form" of Judaism from the traditional to the Hellenized?

No, I don't think Mark was seeing so far.
The heroic figure he created was in conflict with the Jewish authority, particularly the Pharisee.
(This might just have mirrored the conflict between his movement of the Kingdom of God and the Jewish establishment.)
So, he just follows this idea with the temple.

The other good reason for Mark to introduce this fictional event is to give a reason for the arrest and crucifixion of Jesus.

Just my 2 cents.

Clivedurdle · 03-05-2009, 12:10 PM

I like it - the gospels as the Greek Jews fighting back against the Taliban Jews.

Maybe it isn't Roman but Greek Jewish?

But it looks like the Taliban Jewish faction put their oar in - the Pharisees were actually the rational lot - the attacks of Jesus on scribes and pharisees are against Greek Jewish sympathisers. Clearing the temple may reflect Hannukah and the destruction of the Buddhas in Afghanistan.

Not one jot and tittle is taliban judaism.

Are they a record of the views of the different factions? An attempt to create a peace treaty?

Clivedurdle · 03-05-2009, 12:13 PM

By the way, the alleged traditionalists were probably a new phenomenon following Alexander - in the same way that fundamentalism - an early twentieth century invention as a reaction to modernism claims to be the traditional view - going back to the Bible.

semiopen · 03-05-2009, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

By the way, the alleged traditionalists were probably a new phenomenon following Alexander - in the same way that fundamentalism - an early twentieth century invention as a reaction to modernism claims to be the traditional view - going back to the Bible.

I was hoping you would comment on this Clive. Your previous defense of the minmalist case for the origin of the Hebrew bible was thought provoking.

There have been some other posts on here discussing similarities of Judah Macabee with Jesus, and I've seen opinions elsewhere that argue for a birth of a historical Jesus more than 100 years before the common era.

Interesting speculation. Ironically Hanukah seems to be the only Jewish Holiday that has some historical accuracy.

Clivedurdle · 03-06-2009, 11:47 AM

The 100 years before idea tracks to the Teacher of Righteousness - Ellegard - probably not relevant here.

But cleansing the temple actually has several historical precedents - Hannukah, Vespasian and Hadrian....

Judaism following Alexander was very Greek - maybe it should be seen as a Greek cult - Jerusalem was a classic Greek city for several centuries, with gymnasium and all.

Hannukah celebrates the victory of the fundies over the Greek Jews - who wanted to abolish circumcision for example.

This story in the gospels and the one about Jesus going their as a child may be more significant politically than we realise. Definitely something to research further.

A whole review of the relationship between the Temple and the New Testament from a non apologist perspective might be enlightening!

Clivedurdle · 03-06-2009, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Judas Maccabeus (or Judah Maccabee, also spelled Machabeus, or Maccabaeus, Hebrew: יהודה המכבי, Yehudah HaMakabi, Judah the Hammer) was a Kohen and the third son of the Jewish priest Mattathias. He led the Maccabean revolt against the Seleucid Empire (167 BCE-160 BCE) and is acclaimed as one of the greatest warriors in Jewish history alongside Joshua, Gideon and David.
The Jewish feast of Hanukkah ("Dedication") commemorates the restoration of Jewish worship at the temple in Jerusalem in 165 BCE, after Judas Maccabee removed the pagan statuary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_Maccabeus

The received history of Judaism has also got huge propaganda elements.

For example - restoration, pagan in the above quote.

Was it a restoration or was the imposition of a new Taliban Judaism - he restored circumcision which the alleged pagan Jews had wanted to get rid of and was actually a very nasty character,

Interesting he is said to be greater than the fictional characters of Joshua, Gideon and David! (OK David might have been a local war lord, gosh Judas was as well!)

I am very puzzled that texts seem to be talking about a Greek invasion of something that was already Greek that provoked this! Very suspicious!

Clivedurdle · 03-06-2009, 12:07 PM

Quote:

the Seleucid Empire (167 BCE-160 BCE)

Quote:

Seleucus I (surnamed for later generations Nicator, Greek: Σέλευκος Νικάτωρ, i.e. Seleucus Victor) (ca. 358 BCE–281 BCE), was a Macedonian officer of Alexander the Great. In the Wars of the Diadochi that took place after Alexander's death, Seleucus established the Seleucid dynasty and the Seleucid Empire. His kingdom would be one of the last holdouts of Alexander's former empire to Roman rule. They were only outlived by the Ptolemaic Kingdom in Egypt by roughly 34 years.

Quote:

The Ptolemaic Kingdom in and around Egypt began following Alexander the Great's conquest in 332 BC and ended with the death of Cleopatra VII and the Roman conquest in 30 BC. It was founded when Ptolemy I Soter declared himself Pharaoh of Egypt, creating a powerful Hellenistic state stretching from southern Syria to Cyrene and south to Nubia. Alexandria became the capital city and a center of Greek culture and trade

Both are Greek Dynasties started by arguing generals following Alexander!

There is something very wrong with the Jewish and Xian perspectives of history of this period.

Maybe Jesus and Judas Maccabee should be carefully compared and contrasted starting with the real political context of the area, not fiction about Jerusalem being the centre of the earth.

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03-05-2009, 12:10 PM	#3
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I like it - the gospels as the Greek Jews fighting back against the Taliban Jews. Maybe it isn't Roman but Greek Jewish? But it looks like the Taliban Jewish faction put their oar in - the Pharisees were actually the rational lot - the attacks of Jesus on scribes and pharisees are against Greek Jewish sympathisers. Clearing the temple may reflect Hannukah and the destruction of the Buddhas in Afghanistan. Not one jot and tittle is taliban judaism. Are they a record of the views of the different factions? An attempt to create a peace treaty?

03-05-2009, 12:13 PM	#4
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	By the way, the alleged traditionalists were probably a new phenomenon following Alexander - in the same way that fundamentalism - an early twentieth century invention as a reaction to modernism claims to be the traditional view - going back to the Bible.

03-06-2009, 11:47 AM	#6
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	The 100 years before idea tracks to the Teacher of Righteousness - Ellegard - probably not relevant here. But cleansing the temple actually has several historical precedents - Hannukah, Vespasian and Hadrian.... Judaism following Alexander was very Greek - maybe it should be seen as a Greek cult - Jerusalem was a classic Greek city for several centuries, with gymnasium and all. Hannukah celebrates the victory of the fundies over the Greek Jews - who wanted to abolish circumcision for example. This story in the gospels and the one about Jesus going their as a child may be more significant politically than we realise. Definitely something to research further. A whole review of the relationship between the Temple and the New Testament from a non apologist perspective might be enlightening!

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