Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ignostic Morgan · 09-19-2006, 04:37 PM

We rationalists are dogmatic in wanting evidence! We are the mirror image of fundamentalists . Sure! We want evidence and they want your mind to brainwash it. That way you can take the wafers and think they are the body of that savior without thinking also that you are a cannibal .

DBT · 09-19-2006, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carin Nel

It’s very sad to hear you say that, after Jesus has said time and again in the Scriptures

Lord Krishna said, " It is maya, hallucination, a sort of vision that you are thinking of.

Carin Nel · 09-20-2006, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen T-B

"As long as they believe in Jesus, God seems to be satisfied. As I’ve said earlier, He looks at the sincerity of the heart" (Carin Nell).
OK.
So the ministers of the Dutch Reformed Church who supported Apartheid satisified god? They were certainly sincere.
And Queen Mary I of England who burnt Protestants alive satisfied god because she was sincere?

David had Uriah killed to get his wife Batsheba. When God sent the prophet to him to rebuke him, he realized his terrible deed and repented sincerely. He was called a man after God's own heart.
Paul killed christians because he thought he was doing God a favor. God intervened on the road to Damascus. He became a martyr for God and one of the greates apostles.
Last week, the minister of Defense of the Aparheid Government, Adriaan Vlok, a member of the Dutch Reformed Church, went to Reverent Frank Chikane, asked for forgiveness and washed his feet. I'm sure you will be able to read it on the internet somewhere. That set the climate for others to come forward, repent and reconcile, forgive and talk.
Conviction from God in the heart of a sincere believer is a strong force that bring about repentance and reconciliation.
God's Word is very clear on the issue that all men are equal in the sight of God, and God was definitely not satisfied that the synod of the D.R. Church was supporting the the Apartheid Goverment. Why do you think the D.R.Church is struggling to keep its members? Many members and pastors left the denomination because of its support of Apartheid.
Mary 1 of England was obviously "sincerely" wrong and God would not have been satisfied with that. I don't know the history, so I won't comment on that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen T-B

[Why, Carin, do I get the feeling that you are hiding behind religious texts - holding them up over your head to protect you from anything which is a bit awkward - like questions about your extraordinary insistence that before the Fall there were no predators when the world around you is filled with creatures which can only ever have been predators - like, for instance, crocodiles and eagles. And do you really suppose that Tyrannus Saurus Rex was a harmless herbivore?
And why do you think that if someone scooped out your brains and ate them, you'd still be aware of what's going on, and feel happiness and joy, and pain and anguish?
Because the Bible says so?
But think about it
And think about what it means to exist for eternity. What will your soul be doing in 100,000 years from now? In 100,000 million years from now? In 100,000 million million years from now?
And after all that time, it will have progressed as far through eternity as it would have done in a 100,000 million millionth of a second.

How does the Bible answer that?

I'm not going into a discussion on that again, because I don't have the scientific knowledge.
All I can say is that God is not bound by time, so when we die, time will have no effect on us either, because we will move out of the time-sphere. That is why the Bible say that one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like one day with the Lord -2 Peter 3:8

You can think about it as a human being in the flesh, Stephen, but you won't understand it, but when you die, you won't be in the flesh anymore, but in the spirit in another realm altogether.

Regards
Carin Nel

Stephen T-B · 09-20-2006, 02:09 AM

"when we die, time will have no effect on us either, " (Carin Nell)

So to speak of "eternity" and "living for ever" is meaningless?
You don't actually have any idea at all what "being dead" will be like. In fact, my notioin of dead being dead - ie oblivion for ever more - makes a lot more sense than what is taught by Christianity.

DBT · 09-20-2006, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carin Nel

All I can say is that God is not bound by time, so when we die, time will have no effect on us either, because we will move out of the time-sphere.
Regards
Carin Nel

Without time, thought, action, motion, etc - is impossible. A state without time is a state of absolute stasis. Nothing happens, and nothing can ever happen as there can be no past, no present, and no future in a timeless state.

Carin Nel · 09-20-2006, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carin Nel

You can think about it as a human being in the flesh, but you won't understand it, but when you die, you won't be in the flesh anymore, but in the spirit in another realm altogether.

Regards
Carin Nel

Rev. 14:13 speaks of the "rest from their labors" for those "who die in the Lord"
"Rest" - anapauo (Strong's #373) from "ana" - "up" and "pauo" - "to make to cease".
The word describes a cessation from toil, a refreshment, an intermission.
In Matt. 28:20 Jesus says, " ..I will be with you always, even to the end of the age..."
"age" - "aion" (Strong's #165) meaning an indefinitely long period with emphasis on the characteristics of the period rather than on its duration. In idiomatic usage it designates "forever and ever" (Matt.21:19; Rom. 16:27; Ephes. 3:21)
The word is also used as a designation for the present age (Matt. 12:32; 13:22; 1Tim. 6:17) and for the time after Christ's second coming (Mark 10:30; Luke 20:35)

"when we die, time will have no effect on us either" - what I mean by that, is that we will not experience it then than we do now physically (in the flesh) We won't grow old or experience the ticking by of secons, hours, days. Eveything will be in the present and stay like that.
We cannot understand this concept with our natural minds, because we are still locked in time.
For that very reason you will not accept this idea from me.

Regards,
Carin Nel

Stephen T-B · 09-20-2006, 04:10 AM

so what's the differnce between "a cessation from toil, a refreshment, an intermission" (Carin Nell) from oblivion?

Carin Nel · 09-20-2006, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen T-B

so what's the differnce between "a cessation from toil, a refreshment, an intermission" (Carin Nell) from oblivion?

The person in oblivion is according to you, not existing anymore; alltogether gone, forgotten. Oblivion has its roots in the word "to forget" as far as I know.
To rest from one's work is far from dead. It is just resting.
There are many different references in the Scriptures to "forever"and "eternal" and where it refers to a person's life, it always means never-ending life.
Regards,
Carin Nel

DBT · 09-20-2006, 11:57 PM

Oblivion is a good example of a true timeless state. Death is timeless.

Hilarius · 10-31-2006, 02:45 AM

Dear Rainbow Walking

You asked ... What if ...
I am wrong and God does exist?

Hilarius
Great to see you asking the question !!!

RW
And what if this God really is omniscient...meaning super intelligent? Wouldn't that mean he would really respect intelligence and people dedicated to "Truth" even at the risk of eternal damnation?

Hilarius
Like a well trained Southern fundamentalist you are still worrying about all those omni attributes! Well done! Your Christian teachers trained you well, in their literalist terms ... but liberal Christians worry less about the omni issues than the fact that if he does exist, and did send his son he is truly a God of love and not a God of all those literal OT dramas that were human impressions of him rather than his wish for them

The OT for the liberal Christian is more a struggle by man to understand God than a literal prescription by God of who he is. The OT is a part of man's honest effort to find God, but is negated in many respects by the teachings of Christ

RW
What if this God really established the carrot of eternal life in heaven as a test, only instead of blind, obedient sheep who were in it for the selfish desire to attain this eternal life in heaven, he also established this paradigm of "Faith" as a motive test?

Hilarius
Here is that questioning intellectual honesty which was always your strong suit! What a wonderful question ... even if no Christian is sure of the correct answer ... though we do know that the son was tested and tempted.

Are we better for being tested than not? It is well worth a thought.

RW
What if it turns out the atheist will be rewarded with eternal life in heaven because he was willing to sacrifice his existence to eternal damnation for refusing to surrender his intellectual integrity to the whims of a Jewish fable?

Hilarius
What if the the only damnation is the fact the we squandered our opportunities of knowing Him better in our physical experience of time and if there is no time to change anything in eternity ... because time depends on physical existence?

What if as HH John Paul II said the only damnation is the spiritual separation from God which we ourselves choose?

RW
What if a really super intelligent God had the same intellectual integrity and really respected the people who would not cave in to threats of eternal damnation but remained consistent to their dedication to the minute bits and pieces of truth that could be ascertained incrementally over long periods of time and with great effort as a result of this dedication rather than allowing their intellects to be swayed by promises of eternal life if only they would allow this one little shortcut of revelation to permeate and color their intrepretational faculties?

Hilarius
It is earthly priests who dangle promises and threats in front of those who would prefer to inquire with deeper intellectual honesty. This is a problem for theists and non-theists alike.

RW
What if God really wants to be found by men of REASON and established faith to weed out those who aren't really interested in putting forth the effort to find him, but are eager for a shortcut to avoid the effort?

Hilarius
What a superb question ... and a question which could only come from one who believed, was disappointed with short cuts ... and imagined threats ... but who still would like to believe if only he could

I remember the enthusiasm for mission and evangelism of the RW father and the Apostle's namesake, his son, and the sadness when contact was lost with them

I've been at death's door in the last year, but perhaps the fact that I'm still here to talk to my old friend RW after my dire post operative complications, including 5 days in intensive care on the danger list is some sort of proof that we are still meant to talk

Your Friend in Australia

Hilarius

10-31-2006, 02:45 AM	#590
Hilarius Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia Posts: 51	At the end of the Rainbow .... Dear Rainbow Walking You asked ... What if ... I am wrong and God does exist? Hilarius Great to see you asking the question !!! RW And what if this God really is omniscient...meaning super intelligent? Wouldn't that mean he would really respect intelligence and people dedicated to "Truth" even at the risk of eternal damnation? Hilarius Like a well trained Southern fundamentalist you are still worrying about all those omni attributes! Well done! Your Christian teachers trained you well, in their literalist terms ... but liberal Christians worry less about the omni issues than the fact that if he does exist, and did send his son he is truly a God of love and not a God of all those literal OT dramas that were human impressions of him rather than his wish for them The OT for the liberal Christian is more a struggle by man to understand God than a literal prescription by God of who he is. The OT is a part of man's honest effort to find God, but is negated in many respects by the teachings of Christ RW What if this God really established the carrot of eternal life in heaven as a test, only instead of blind, obedient sheep who were in it for the selfish desire to attain this eternal life in heaven, he also established this paradigm of "Faith" as a motive test? Hilarius Here is that questioning intellectual honesty which was always your strong suit! What a wonderful question ... even if no Christian is sure of the correct answer ... though we do know that the son was tested and tempted. Are we better for being tested than not? It is well worth a thought. RW What if it turns out the atheist will be rewarded with eternal life in heaven because he was willing to sacrifice his existence to eternal damnation for refusing to surrender his intellectual integrity to the whims of a Jewish fable? Hilarius What if the the only damnation is the fact the we squandered our opportunities of knowing Him better in our physical experience of time and if there is no time to change anything in eternity ... because time depends on physical existence? What if as HH John Paul II said the only damnation is the spiritual separation from God which we ourselves choose? RW What if a really super intelligent God had the same intellectual integrity and really respected the people who would not cave in to threats of eternal damnation but remained consistent to their dedication to the minute bits and pieces of truth that could be ascertained incrementally over long periods of time and with great effort as a result of this dedication rather than allowing their intellects to be swayed by promises of eternal life if only they would allow this one little shortcut of revelation to permeate and color their intrepretational faculties? Hilarius It is earthly priests who dangle promises and threats in front of those who would prefer to inquire with deeper intellectual honesty. This is a problem for theists and non-theists alike. RW What if God really wants to be found by men of REASON and established faith to weed out those who aren't really interested in putting forth the effort to find him, but are eager for a shortcut to avoid the effort? Hilarius What a superb question ... and a question which could only come from one who believed, was disappointed with short cuts ... and imagined threats ... but who still would like to believe if only he could I remember the enthusiasm for mission and evangelism of the RW father and the Apostle's namesake, his son, and the sadness when contact was lost with them I've been at death's door in the last year, but perhaps the fact that I'm still here to talk to my old friend RW after my dire post operative complications, including 5 days in intensive care on the danger list is some sort of proof that we are still meant to talk Your Friend in Australia Hilarius

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09-19-2006, 04:37 PM	#581
Ignostic Morgan Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Carneades of Ga. Posts: 391	We rationalists are dogmatic in wanting evidence! We are the mirror image of fundamentalists . Sure! We want evidence and they want your mind to brainwash it. That way you can take the wafers and think they are the body of that savior without thinking also that you are a cannibal .

09-20-2006, 02:09 AM	#584
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	"when we die, time will have no effect on us either, " (Carin Nell) So to speak of "eternity" and "living for ever" is meaningless? You don't actually have any idea at all what "being dead" will be like. In fact, my notioin of dead being dead - ie oblivion for ever more - makes a lot more sense than what is taught by Christianity.

09-20-2006, 04:10 AM	#587
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	so what's the differnce between "a cessation from toil, a refreshment, an intermission" (Carin Nell) from oblivion?

09-20-2006, 11:57 PM	#589
DBT Contributor Join Date: May 2003 Location: ɹǝpunuʍop puɐן ǝɥʇ Posts: 17,906	Oblivion is a good example of a true timeless state. Death is timeless.

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