Plognark

Angry Atheist Curmudgeon Rant Alert: The above section is a steaming load of horse shit, no offense dado.

Ever single time I have attempted to start dialogue with a theist, in real life, on the web, on the phone, etc, etc, etc, it has degraded to the theist becoming angry at my mere denial of their religion. "Sorry, I just don't believe in Jesus/Allah/YHWH/whatever seems to come across as "I hate your god and think you're a fucking moron, and want you and your spawn dead and wiped from the earth."
Most theists seem to have such an unhealthy vested interest in their beliefs that any questioning of them is viewed as an attack, often a serious one. Holy shit, it's like saying "I don't believe in jesus" is as offensive as a kick in the teeth.

Sorry if this is anecdotal, but i'm sure many others feel the same way.

I'm sorry if any of you hold an illogical world view. Please,stop taking offense at people who question the inconsistencies and use your f***ing brain to look at your own life instead of pulling it from a collection of bronze age shepherd's myths and ramming it down other people's throats

I honestly believe that polite dialogue is not possible in many cases. I have just never seen it, once. There' always that hostility, even if it's repressed or put to the side. The "agree to disagree" means little more than "I think you're a fucking idiot, but I'm sick of arguing with you right now because it's making me uncomfortable because I don't want to think about my own religion that way."


So at any rate, i'll change my hostile ways when people stop trying to control my life by the standards of their illogical beliefs. I've tried polite. It's done jack shit for me except to have theists press even harder to convert me, sensing weakness or something I suppose.


I couldn't have said it better myself.

dado

yeah, some people just suck and it is difficult to find the patience to deal with them. but keep in mind, if you're justified in criticising them, you've given them a blank check on criticising right back. and there are more of them than of you.

yes, you are correct, i was referring to a particular type of criticism, thanks for clarifying that for me.

(see? you just dialogued nicely with a theist. )

Dean Anderson

It does sometimes seem as if we are translating through Monty Python's 'Hungarian Phrasebook'.

It happens both ways, though...

e.g.
Theist says: 'I'll pray for you'
Theist means: 'I will try to help you'
Atheist hears: 'You will burn in HELL! You SINNER!'

e.g.
Atheist says: 'I don't believe in God'
Atheist means: 'I haven't found any evidence strong enough to convince me that God exists'
Theist hears: 'Jesus is an asshole and so are you for following him'

dado

that's an odd statement, plog, because i recall a number of times you - an atheist - and i - a theist - have intersected quite decently right here on IIDB. in fact we are doing it right now. so we already have an existence proof the above statement is incorrect.

what you are doing is putting the responsibility for your behavior on the theist - which, interestingly, echoes certain apologist arguments for G-d's behavior in Eden - instead of simply resolving to either not get into those kinds of discussions in the first place or - if you must - to resolve on unending politeness on your part.

you can always walk away. if you choose not to, nothing the theist does can be used to justify your own behavior.

Starboy

I do not know the answer to that question. I can tell you this, from my vantage point America twenty years ago was a more civil nation than it is today and I attribute the increase in incivility to the intolerance and fear mongering coming from the Christian conservatives.

Starboy

Magdlyn

Conversely, I have had nice polite conversations with theists, even Xtian fundamentalists. But I do not take a tude into it.

I do not see them as evil. I see them as narrow minded and ignorant. But I do not mean that in a bad way. They have just not stepped out of the box much. Often, I seem to give them a new perspective on their narrow view of what God is. Sometimes they thank me. I think they find, talking to me, they get to use their brain in new ways, and they can't deny, it can feel good.

Then again, I am no longer an atheist, or an agnostic. But nor am I a believer. Just a seeker. I have been told, I ask open ended questions, in a non-threatening manner, which force people to think.

On one board, I know I make some fundies and Catholics uneasy. But they just learn to stay away from me and retreat the their cocoon. No doubt, they think I am Lord Satan.

dado

watched a documentary the other night called "The Eyes of Tammy Faye". yeah, *that* Tammy Faye. 20 years ago she was on her worldwide satellite x'ian tv network crying with HIV-positive gay men, showing genuine empathy and respect. from there, Falwell gets up in front of the tv and claims to have evidence Jim Bakker is gay and next thing you know Ralph Reed is on the Enron board of directors and 43* is in the white house.

yuck.

it would be easy to blame it all on a handful of individuals like Robertson and Falwell, but the truth is they wouldn't have influence if they didn't have an audience. there seem to be an awful lot of frightened Americans out there.

0

I have met hostile atheists just as I have met hostile Christians. I don't think those particularly individuals encompass either view. I take what I hear with a grain of salt and keep moving. The only thing that truly matters is my own life philosophy.
So when I meet a person of any faith or lack of one who is hostile towards me simply because of my religious views, I believe the the error lies with them, not myself.
Mostly I choose not to delve into religious or political conversations much. Neither is anyone's business. And I've learned from experience that both
can be potential landmines in a discussion.


Tangie

brighid

truthie,

You are too new here to know this but wilderneese is a long-time poster here at iidb and she married to an atheist moderator, RufusAtticus. Her experience with atheism and atheists is a bit more intimate than what she has experienced here, although iidb is actually quite a good place to meet atheists and get a decent cross-section sampling of atheist points of view ... which hardly are homogenous except for a lack of belief in Gods.

Some theists certainly get easily offended when their beliefs are challenged, however part of that is due to how an individual atheist approaches that subject. There are individuals here at iidb that are outright hostile to anyone with a theist label and make no bones about ridiculing the beliefs of those individuals, and even go so far as to attack the individual (which is against the rules). Many an atheist has been banned for their repeated "bad behavior". Some atheists have individually earned a bad reputation, although it is unfair to broadly label any group in a stereotypical negative way.

Atheists are no less human than theists. We all tend to follow the inexplicable trends of human nature. If you want your right to think, worship, and believe as you wish you MUST extend that respect to others. That does not mean you can't think that it is absolutely ridiculous to spend $60 a pop on tarot card readings. However, that does not give you the right to ridicule that individual because they make a choice you do not find reasonable. It does not harm you that she/he spends that money on tarot card readings.

Now, there are aspects of certain theistic movements that do cause harm such as those seeking to destroy the concept of separation of Church and State, or those forcing creationism into school, or those who oppose birth control, etc. These erroneous ideas and harmful behaviors should be countered, but with reasoned, intelligent, truthful arguments and actively participating in civic responsibility through writing our legistlators, volunteering in your community, writing letters to the editor and contributing your time and money to organizations that support your ideals. But it should be noted that many theists and theist organizations do not support the destruction of the separation of Church and State, the implementation of creationism, etc. in schools.

If you need to ridicule people I would say to do so in strictly homogenous company, with people who think as you do. No one is perfectly reasonable or even rational all the time. Allow others their journey, their fantasies, their own path. Be a positive example and counter the negative stereotypes by failing to be that stereotype of the angry, defensive, ridiculing atheist.

Brighid

Anitra

In my opinion, neither being Christian or being atheist makes you an asshole -- you are an asshole all on your own, whatever ideology you use to justify it. Or else you are not an asshole, all on your own. I think that it is asshole-dom that we should all oppose, not ideologies.

I consider it my responsibility to speak up whenever anybody is being abused, and my responsibility to argue against Christian ideologies that promote or justify abuse. But I do not consider myself guilty of everything another Chrstian, or American, or female, or science fiction fan, does. Neither is every atheist guilty for whatever another atheist does.

I once saw a Christian call a pleasant, intelligent, compassioinate man "the most evil person on earth" simply for doubting the Bible and asking critical questions. I have also been accused of secretly wanting to burn unbelievers to death just because I'd identified myself as a Christian. Both responses are bigoted, abusive, and wrong. There are several things that make the first far more common, however, at least in the USA:
1) There are many more Christians in the USA than here are atheists or nonchristian theists.
2) Historically, Christianity has been the dominant religion in US culture, and therefore the social power-balance is with the Christian: Christians are more likely to feel safe and supported in atacking an atheist, than the other way around.
3) Because of that history, there are cultural assumptions all over the place that equate "Christian" with "good" and "atheist" with "Communist" "amoral" or worse. There is more cultural bias conditioning people to think ill of an atheist and justify an attack on one, than that which supports thinking ill of someone jus for being a Christian, and atacking them for it.

In general, though, this is The Land That Made Dysfunctional Famous, and dialogue and conflict resolution skills suck border to border. Things have gotten worse as the the country becomes more polarized in "the culture wars." Streamlined ideologies in which Good and Evil (Us and Them) are duking it out for the future of all civilization are more easily packaged for mass consumption than are more complex, nuanced, and less polarized ideologies. If you can't accomplish anything else in your life, you can at least get some ego-boo out of taking pot-shots at an Enemy of Civilization, whether that is a "Superstitious Theist" or an "Immoral Atheist."

As for myself, I do not consider any person to be either good or evil, smart or stupid; individual actions and individual ideas are good or bad, right or wrong, smart or stupid. Actions and ideas can and must be judged; people aren't. I do not oppose ideologies; I do oppose stupid and harmful ideas. I also stupid and oppose harmful behavior. I try to keep the two separate, because I have found a lot of people who think intelligently to act like obnoxious idjits, and a lot of people who believe in the Blue Fairy of Aldebaran who act like great people to have around.