Jobber

I understand your interest here. However, whether or not Jesus was an actual person is not the important question, IMHO. What matters is whether or not the deeds/words of Jesus, as well as the events that surrounded him as described in the N.T., are indeed historical.

The historical person can be neither proven nor disproven. The real question seems to be where the historical Jesus stops and the legendary/mythical Jesus begins.

Ben C Smith

I disagree completely. It is left open as a genuine possibility that it may all be pared away. Notice that even the iffy stuff, the stuff that could go either way, is pared away. What is left is stuff that honestly seems to tilt in the historicist direction.

Ben.

aa5874

Now, since you claim that the historical Jesus cannot be proven or disproven, it is quite contradictory to ask, "where does the historical Jesus stop and the legendary/mythical Jesus begin?'

Your question, on your own admission, cannot be answered, since you have already claimed the historical Jesus cannot be proven or disproven.

However, I should point out to you that the NT and the early christian writers do not support an historical Jesus. These writers clainmed Jesus was a God.

There is no historical Jesus in the NT, just the Son of a God.

The Jesus of the NT began as a myth (Matt 1.18)and ended as a myth(Acts 1.9), and the early christian writers, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Origen and Eusebius agree with the authors of Matthew and Acts.

aa5874

But, the crucifixion of the Jesus of the NT cannot be shown to be an historical fact.

And, the crucifixion only appears to be plausible if Jesus was not the Son of God, but that is exactly who Jesus was according to the NT and the early christian writers, the Son of a God.

The crucifixion of a God is not plausible and most likely not an historical fact.

There is no historical core to the Son of God of the NT.

Ben C Smith

Jobber

Good points.

Would it be better to say that there may have been an historical Jesus but all we are left with is the legendary/mythical one?

aa5874

There is ALWAYS the possibilty that there was an historical Jesus, and likewise, there is ALWAYS the possibilty that Jesus NEVER existed.

Now, the major problem, as I have said many, many times before, is that the NT and the early christian writers claimed as absolutely true and historically factual that Jesus was a God.

No credible external source of antiquity have written about the history of Jesus, the man.. Even Josephus, whether interpolated or not, in "Antiquities of the Jews" 18.3.3 claimed this God Jesus was seen alive three days after he died.

Now in which century do you propose the historical Jesus lived? And in which book do you suggest we look to find the historical Jesus?

The NT claimed Jesus was a God.

Which book of antiquity claimed Jesus was just human?

aa5874

Well, let's get the record straight.

Matthew 1.18, Luke 1.35, These are the records, Jesus is the the offspring of the HOLY Ghost.

What does your unbroken records contain?

Jobber

Good comments. I have been spending the past year over at CARM and am tired of the same arguments and the lack of scholarly input, especially from Christians. Now, I plan on visiting here more often.

gurugeorge

I didn't mean to say you were expecting (psychologically) to find a HJ after all the paring away, I was questioning how you can possibly expect (logically) to be able to identify real historical details about a real historical man and distinguish them from pseudo-historical details about a myth, simply by paring away, simply on the basis of internal coherence alone.

It seems to me you can't - it seems to me you need some anchor in external evidence about some man who you can independently pin down as a likely candidate for a man behind the myth. In that case, some details about the man might match some details about the myth, and then you can say "ah yes this bit of the mythical story is actually history about a real man who formed the basis for the myth".