Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshbazzar · 05-11-2013, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

Can anybody think of scenarios (within the HJ paradigm) of how the idea of Jesus’ historical resurrection was conceived?

The gospel's are 'prophecy fulfillment texts', with a highly imaginative narrative constructed entirely around selected snippets of OT texts, and material culled from reports on the lives and miracles of other famous people, as well as old midrashim sayings. The gaps being filled in and connected with fabricated situations and narrated 'conversations'.

The coming of the Messiah and the resurrection of the dead were old themes, and with those troubled times, a hot commodity among apocalyptic groups.
A composition that suggested the Messiah had indeed came and wrought the promised salvation of God's 'chosen ones' and was now ruling from heaven was what many people wanted to hear. And once it was suggested, the ball was rolling, with multiple authors and sects coming up with their variation on the theme.

If you must insist that there was a real flesh and blood historical HJ Christ at the root of these stories you will be disappointed with this explanation, but your search for a HJ will be even more disappointing. You cannot find something that never was.

Sheshbazzar · 05-11-2013, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Paul's revealed Gospel must come After people BELIEVE Jesus was resurrected in order for him to appear authoritative.

And apparently 'Paul's revealed Gospel' only came to be heard of in the late second century, some 130+ years after 'Jesus' mythical cruci-fiction.
Second century 'gospels' were back-dated, the latter fabricated Acts and 'Pauline Epistles' were likewise backdated. No history there, just pious religious imaginations.

Tommy · 05-11-2013, 07:20 PM

There are 14 resurrection events described in the 66 books of the regular bible. Perhaps it was merely custom to associate major figures with such phenomena.

aa5874 · 05-11-2013, 07:28 PM

Paul's post resurrection story of the OVER 500 people is NOT attested in the Jesus cult Canon and it has been deduced that the Pauline writings are products of Multiple authors.

It is extremely disturbing to me that people use admitted sources of forgery, false attribution and do so without attestation to make claims about Paul which are found ONLY in the same discredited letters.

The Pauline letters have ZERO historical value to date the Belief of the Resurrection.

The Pauline letters are extremely helpful in dating the fraud and forgeries carried by Apologetics.

In the writings attributed to Justin it is claimed that the Jews claimed the disciples STOLE the dead body of Jesus in order to make people believe Jesus was resurrected.

Justin's statement supposedly made around c 150 would be totally not needed if hundreds of people knew that Jesus resurrected.
Dialogue with Trypho CVII

Quote:

......you have sent chosen and ordained men throughout all the world to proclaim that a godless and lawless heresy had sprung from one Jesus, a Galilaean deceiver, whom we crucified, but his disciples stole him by night from the tomb..

The Pauline OVER 500 Post Resurrection story was UNATTESTED up to the time of Justin and was an extremely late invention.

John Kesler · 05-11-2013, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

What if it wasn't an hallucination, vision or dream, what options are left then?

Robert Price mentions another possibility:

Quote:

Like many other narrative details in the gospels, the place of Jesus' burial appears differently in different texts, appearing to grow in the telling. In Acts 13:29, we may find preserved a fragment of early tradition according to which Jesus' enemies buried him in an unknown location. Mark 15:46 describes the burial place of Jesus simply as "a tomb which had been hewn out of the rock," while Matthew 27:60 makes the tomb that of Joseph of Arimathea ("his own new tomb"), supplying this detail as the requirement of Isaiah 53:9, a text he regards as a prophecy of Jesus' burial. Luke knows nothing of this but makes it "a rock‑hewn tomb, where no one had ever been laid" (Luke 23:53), recalling the donkey "on which no one has ever yet sat" (Luke 19:30; cf. also 1 Samuel 6:7, where the Ark of the Covenant is borne by cattle "upon which there has never come a yoke"). But it is only in the latest of the four gospels, John, that we hear of Jesus' being interred in a tomb "in a garden" (John 19:41). John tells us that Jesus' body was placed there in haste, and only temporarily, because of the lateness of the hour, with the start of the Sabbath impending (19:42). So when Mary Magdalene visits the tomb early Sunday morning and finds it empty, there is no mystery. She simply assumes the gardener has already removed Jesus for permanent reburial elsewhere (20:2, 15). These Johannine details are quite interesting, especially in view of the possibilities they (perhaps unwittingly) raise.

Cesc · 05-12-2013, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

One doesnt need to look at "dying and rising gods" mythology. Most of the mythology is already present in the OT

Not the mythology concerning God raising Christ from the dead?

Quote:

We know by Apocrypha there was more then one resurrection version floating around.

Such as Enochic literature?

Quote:

fertility? only if your jumping through mental hoops that are not really there. The mythology is pretty clear on what it represents.

I dont think it is. What does it represent?

Cesc · 05-12-2013, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

Can anybody think of scenarios (within the HJ paradigm) of how the idea of Jesus’ historical resurrection was conceived?

The gospel's are 'prophecy fulfillment texts', with a highly imaginative narrative constructed entirely around selected snippets of OT texts, and material culled from reports on the lives and miracles of other famous people, as well as old midrashim sayings. The gaps being filled in and connected with fabricated situations and narrated 'conversations'.

The coming of the Messiah and the resurrection of the dead were old themes, and with those troubled times, a hot commodity among apocalyptic groups.
A composition that suggested the Messiah had indeed came and wrought the promised salvation of God's 'chosen ones' and was now ruling from heaven was what many people wanted to hear. And once it was suggested, the ball was rolling, with multiple authors and sects coming up with their variation on the theme.

I like this scenario. Of course the pivot point is the suggestion part. And I could see how somebody would construct the story in 'the righteous man suffering' pattern. But once again I ask, why the resurrection? We have the letters of a man, Paul, who personally knew people that claimed to have seen this resurrected messiah in a very real historical understanding. Were they lying to him? Couldn't the messiah just have died and gone straight to heaven to the right side of God's throne? Why the resurrection?

PS.
I'm not interested in finding any HJ and I'm not saying there necessarily was one. But the belief in a historical resurrection is witnessed in Paul's letters whatever the nature of that resurrection.

Cesc · 05-12-2013, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy

There are 14 resurrection events described in the 66 books of the regular bible. Perhaps it was merely custom to associate major figures with such phenomena.

Yes! That could be a major factor in the conception of the resurrection-belief.

Cesc · 05-12-2013, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

What if it wasn't an hallucination, vision or dream, what options are left then?

Robert Price mentions another possibility:

Quote:

Like many other narrative details in the gospels, the place of Jesus' burial appears differently in different texts, appearing to grow in the telling. In Acts 13:29, we may find preserved a fragment of early tradition according to which Jesus' enemies buried him in an unknown location. Mark 15:46 describes the burial place of Jesus simply as "a tomb which had been hewn out of the rock," while Matthew 27:60 makes the tomb that of Joseph of Arimathea ("his own new tomb"), supplying this detail as the requirement of Isaiah 53:9, a text he regards as a prophecy of Jesus' burial. Luke knows nothing of this but makes it "a rock‑hewn tomb, where no one had ever been laid" (Luke 23:53), recalling the donkey "on which no one has ever yet sat" (Luke 19:30; cf. also 1 Samuel 6:7, where the Ark of the Covenant is borne by cattle "upon which there has never come a yoke"). But it is only in the latest of the four gospels, John, that we hear of Jesus' being interred in a tomb "in a garden" (John 19:41). John tells us that Jesus' body was placed there in haste, and only temporarily, because of the lateness of the hour, with the start of the Sabbath impending (19:42). So when Mary Magdalene visits the tomb early Sunday morning and finds it empty, there is no mystery. She simply assumes the gardener has already removed Jesus for permanent reburial elsewhere (20:2, 15). These Johannine details are quite interesting, especially in view of the possibilities they (perhaps unwittingly) raise.

Interesting, the empty tomb could be a misunderstanding like this. But we still have the matter of Paul knowing people first hand that claimed to have witnessed the resurrected.

John Kesler · 05-12-2013, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

Interesting, the empty tomb could be a misunderstanding like this. But we still have the matter of Paul knowing people first hand that claimed to have witnessed the resurrected.

The key word is "claimed." If we accept the biblical account that there really was an empty tomb, this could eventually morph into actually "appearances." That the gospels can't get straight if the first alleged appearance occurred in Jerusalem (Luke/Acts, John 20, and the "long ending" of Mark) or Galilee (Matthew, Mark 14:28 and implied in 16:7, and John 21) casts even more doubt that such a thing actually happened.

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05-11-2013, 07:20 PM	#13
Tommy Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tasmania Posts: 383	There are 14 resurrection events described in the 66 books of the regular bible. Perhaps it was merely custom to associate major figures with such phenomena.

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