Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Loomis · 10-26-2008, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Menno

In Mark Smith's The Early History of God (or via: amazon.co.uk), he argues that no text before the Exile gives unambiguous expression of Israelite monotheism.
...
Smith argues that biblical scholars have to date supposed that (a) Israel's ethnic identity was separate from the other peoples of the land; (b) Israel was not originally among the peoples in the land; (c) specific cultic objects were alien to Israel; and (d) Yahweh was the only deity of Israel.

Smith takes issue with each of these presumptions. Relevant to the question at hand, Smith argues that El was not a "foreign" deity who needed in some sense to be deposed; rather El was the original god of Israel, viz., the name "Isra-el" is an El name, not a Yahwistic one. Smith further adduces that El and Yahweh were identified early on by the absence of biblical polemics against El and by the kind of assimilation/identification expressed in Joshua 22:22, "el elohim yhwh" which Smith translates as "God of gods is Yahweh". The tradition also captured this assimilation as being one of assimilation/unification rather than displacement in Exodus 6:2-3, where the El god who appeared to the patriarchs was identified as being the same as the Yahweh who was now appearing to Moses. While these verses pretty clearly represent priestly editorial commentary (not to say propaganda), the point is that the priestly tradition accepted some kind of foundational continuity between El and Yahweh.

Thanks for mentioning that.

Smith is great; his arguments are quite convincing. Wouldn’t it be cool if everyone who was interested in this subject would take the time to read that book?

Minimalist · 10-27-2008, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newfie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

You rang?

Doesn't that soldier needs a shave and a haircut before He can wear that uniform?

Apparently not.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/07/0...tian-military/

Newfie · 10-27-2008, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newfie

Doesn't that soldier needs a shave and a haircut before He can wear that uniform?

Apparently not.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/07/0...tian-military/

And Muslim criticisms that the US is reviving the Crusades are just completely unfounded, right? Will the US Army soon start sporting white crosses on their uniforms?

Uncle Menno · 10-28-2008, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Menno

In Mark Smith's The Early History of God (or via: amazon.co.uk), he argues that no text before the Exile gives unambiguous expression of Israelite monotheism....

Thanks for mentioning that.

Smith is great; his arguments are quite convincing. Wouldn’t it be cool if everyone who was interested in this subject would take the time to read that book?

I don't remember how I came across Smith. A lunchtime dalliance at Borders, maybe? In any event, he was indeed a real find for me.

That being said, I could have written more about Smith's timeline for the assimilation/convergence of Israelite deities into Yahwistic monolatry. Here is a relevant paragraph from Smith regarding the early Israelite situation:

Quote:

In conclusion, according to the available evidence, Israelite religion in its earliest form did not contrast markedly with the religions of its Levantine neighbors in either number or configuration of deities. Rather the number of deities in Israel was relatively typical for the region. Furthermore, as they did in the religions of the surrounding states, some old Canaanite deities cointinued within an Israelite pantheon dominated by a national god. LIke some of the Phoenician city-states and perhaps Edom, earliest Israel knew El, Baal, a new dynastic or national god, the divine council, a partial divinization of deceased ancestors (Rephaim), and perhaps the cult of a goddess; if so, this religious situation changed at an early stage in ancient Israel. During the period of the Judges, Yahweh held hegemony over a complex religion that preserved some old Canaanite components through an identification with El, a continuation of the concepts of the divine council and partially divinized ancestors, a coexistence with Baal, and perhaps and early toleration for Asherah and subsequent assimilation of her cult and symbol, the asherah. This state of affairs was not to hold for the period of the monarchy." (pp. 25-6) [

I leave the pleasures of further discovery to those interested in the topic.

Joan of Bark · 10-28-2008, 07:03 PM

I am glad to see Jesus is still being portrayed in a military uniform as a caucasian. I would hate to think He might be Jewish.

judge · 10-29-2008, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

I am glad to see Jesus is still being portrayed in a military uniform as a caucasian. I would hate to think He might be Jewish.

Jewish like this?

From here

Joan of Bark · 10-29-2008, 11:26 PM

She's half Jewish. Although I suppose Jesus might have been of mixed blood also, if Mary had been raped by a Roman soldier, as in the novel Testament.

George S · 10-30-2008, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Menno

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

Thanks for mentioning that.

Smith is great; his arguments are quite convincing. Wouldn’t it be cool if everyone who was interested in this subject would take the time to read that book?

I don't remember how I came across Smith. A lunchtime dalliance at Borders, maybe? In any event, he was indeed a real find for me.

That being said, I could have written more about Smith's timeline for the assimilation/convergence of Israelite deities into Yahwistic monolatry. Here is a relevant paragraph from Smith regarding the early Israelite situation:

Quote:

In conclusion, according to the available evidence, Israelite religion in its earliest form did not contrast markedly with the religions of its Levantine neighbors in either number or configuration of deities. Rather the number of deities in Israel was relatively typical for the region. Furthermore, as they did in the religions of the surrounding states, some old Canaanite deities cointinued within an Israelite pantheon dominated by a national god. LIke some of the Phoenician city-states and perhaps Edom, earliest Israel knew El, Baal, a new dynastic or national god, the divine council, a partial divinization of deceased ancestors (Rephaim), and perhaps the cult of a goddess; if so, this religious situation changed at an early stage in ancient Israel. During the period of the Judges, Yahweh held hegemony over a complex religion that preserved some old Canaanite components through an identification with El, a continuation of the concepts of the divine council and partially divinized ancestors, a coexistence with Baal, and perhaps and early toleration for Asherah and subsequent assimilation of her cult and symbol, the asherah. This state of affairs was not to hold for the period of the monarchy." (pp. 25-6) [

I leave the pleasures of further discovery to those interested in the topic.

Thank you for that. I read up on Asherah who is the mother goddess figure associated with snakes and magic trees. Is She the power behind the snake and the tree of knowledge in the garden fable?

Could that myth be an instruction that Asherah worship leads to sin?

Student of Sophia · 10-30-2008, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Hathaway

Thank you for that. I read up on Asherah who is the mother goddess figure associated with snakes and magic trees. Is She the power behind the snake and the tree of knowledge in the garden fable?

Could that myth be an instruction that Asherah worship leads to sin?

The snake represents the power of life to throw off death in the field of time, because it sheds its skin as the moon sheds its shadow. The sacred feminine, in this case Asherah, is thus the power behind the snake.

In a mythology that affirms life and strives for accord with nature the woman and the snake are positive symbols. However in a mythology that views nature as fallen and corrupt the woman and the snake are negative symbols.

Uncle Menno · 10-30-2008, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Hathaway

Thank you for that. I read up on Asherah who is the mother goddess figure associated with snakes and magic trees. Is She the power behind the snake and the tree of knowledge in the garden fable?

Could that myth be an instruction that Asherah worship leads to sin?

Hard to say. Tree iconography is so widespread in ancient religions that the mere mention of a tree without specifying the kind doesn't really give us a lot to go on. For example, Yggdrasil, the Tree of Life in Norse mythology (an ash tree), doesn't really belong to any particular deity--unlike, say, the terebinth/oak, which seems to have been Yahweh's favorite. (Compare one etymology of "druid" as "knower of oaks." Compare further King Solomon, who is described in I Kings 4:33 as also being a knower of trees.)

So the Tree of Life in the Garden might be associated with Asherah--but then again, it might not.

The Garden's second sacred tree is, however, the one you mention: the forbidden Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The connection between Asherah and the knowledge of good and evil seems more tenuous to me, as I'm not aware of any notions of Asherah as the font of knowledge in general or moral knowledge in particular. But this latter of course begs the question of the sort of knowledge that the second tree represents, and whether the serpent was, properly speaking, guarding it.

Perhaps we should consult the Oracles.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-28-2008, 07:03 PM	#35
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	I am glad to see Jesus is still being portrayed in a military uniform as a caucasian. I would hate to think He might be Jewish.

10-29-2008, 11:26 PM	#37
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	She's half Jewish. Although I suppose Jesus might have been of mixed blood also, if Mary had been raped by a Roman soldier, as in the novel Testament.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.