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Old 05-23-2007, 11:39 AM   #21
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1 Thessalonians 2:14for ye became imitators, brethren, of the assemblies of God that are in Judea in Christ Jesus, because such things ye suffered, even ye, from your own countrymen, as also they from the Jews, 15who did both put to death the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and did persecute us, and God they are not pleasing, and to all men [are] contrary,
There you've got the Jews, who are obviously earthly beings, persecuting Paul's people and killing their own prophets. And, Paul has these earthly beings "put to death" Jesus, as they did their own prophets.

Peace
Yeah, right,... ....except there is a big problem of assigning this ridiculous interpolation to Paul. Paul, you see, was one of 'the Jews' proudly persecuted the church by his own admission (Phl 3:6, Gal 1:13) and in Acts 7. is even implicated in the stoning of Stephen, a prophet in his own right.

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Old 05-23-2007, 11:54 AM   #22
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We're only using the "authentic" epistles? Fine by me. So, we'll eliminate every quote out of Hebrews, and the supplemental all about Hebrews, by Doherty, as well.
No, Doherty is correct to use Hebrews (though he uses it incorrectly, IMO). Even if not by Paul, it has a claim to being early.

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Old 05-23-2007, 12:45 PM   #23
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Yeah, right,... ....except there is a big problem of assigning this ridiculous interpolation to Paul. Paul, you see, was one of 'the Jews' proudly persecuted the church by his own admission (Phl 3:6, Gal 1:13) and in Acts 7. is even implicated in the stoning of Stephen, a prophet in his own right.

Jiri
I know ... I just posted those?

He apparently admits his former sins, and it doesn't negate his derogatory comments, curses, etc., directed at Jews who continue clinging to the law. He seems to dislike those who would have been his former peers.


Peace
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Old 05-23-2007, 01:31 PM   #24
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He apparently admits his former sins, and it doesn't negate his derogatory comments, curses, etc., directed at Jews who continue clinging to the law. He seems to dislike those who would have been his former peers.

Peace
In so far as I understand Paul, he only curses the hypocrisy of those who preach the law but do not keep it.

Now, what you seem to be saying is that Paul condemns his fellow Jews (who evidently received no revelation of Christ as he did) for the crimes that he himself participated in. What would that make him - in the 'mind of Christ' that he professes ?

Jiri
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Old 05-23-2007, 04:29 PM   #25
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In so far as I understand Paul, he only curses the hypocrisy of those who preach the law but do not keep it.
The way I understand it, he curses anyone who practices law/deeds over faith.
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Now, what you seem to be saying is that Paul condemns his fellow Jews (who evidently received no revelation of Christ as he did) for the crimes that he himself participated in. What would that make him - in the 'mind of Christ' that he professes ?

Jiri
Hehe ... hypocrisy ... in the Bible? So?


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Old 05-23-2007, 05:56 PM   #26
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Hehe ... hypocrisy ... in the Bible? So?
Peace
I did not talk about the Bible in general, I talked about Paul. If you can show me a pattern of hypocrisy in Paul, I'll reconsider my view of him.

Jiri
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Old 05-23-2007, 06:27 PM   #27
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Just because these threads have a memetic tendency to generate their polar opposites, I am heading this one off at the pass.

I am looking here for the strongest arguments that Paul believed in a Jesus who was on earth. (Or, as may be stated negatively, that Paul disbelieved that Jesus' activity was in some timeless or supraterrestrial sphere.)

The main request I have here is that the poster positing a piece of evidence from the letters of Paul interact with the Doherty material on the cite. There is some comment from Doherty on all the (20+) cites that are commonly adduced here.
Paul's letters reveal at least two sayings of Jesus not otherwise found in the Bible. Paul actually states that Jesus was 'born of a woman' and makes much of the 'suffering servant' theme. His general lack of reference to the ministry of Jesus can be explained by his assumption that his readers were already familiar with that ministry. Paul's theology was as rooted in OT teaching as anyone's, as one might expect from an ex-Pharisee, and the Messiah was certainly expected to be 'God with us' on the earth, and was expected by some to be a very earthly, political leader.
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Old 05-23-2007, 07:46 PM   #28
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There you've got the Jews, who are obviously earthly beings, persecuting Paul's people and killing their own prophets. And, Paul has these earthly beings "put to death" Jesus, as they did their own prophets.
If this passage is authentic, it would indeed be difficult to explain from a mystical perspective.

Solo claimed it's an interpolation, and I have seen argument that it is unlikely to have been in any writing prior to 70 CE, nor added later than 200. Does anyone here know if there is scholarly concensus on the authenticity of 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16?
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Old 05-24-2007, 12:23 AM   #29
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earlychristianwritings.com lists scholarly arguments for and against authenticity. There is a general reluctance to label anything in the so called genuine Pauline letters as an interpolation. This is one of the few exception.
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Old 05-24-2007, 09:47 AM   #30
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Paul's theology was as rooted in OT teaching as anyone's, as one might expect from an ex-Pharisee
If Paul was so steeped in traditional Jewish theology, why did he use the Greek transliteration instead of “messiah”? (I know he wrote in Greek, but my point is he is already somewhat removed from the traditional connotation by using by using the transliteration.)

And why did he use it as a title, “Christ Jesus”, instead of a description, “Jesus the Christ”?

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the Messiah was certainly expected to be 'God with us' on the earth, and was expected by some to be a very earthly, political leader
“Expected by some” perhaps, but clearly not by Paul. Otherwise why was he on and on about a crucified and re-animated spirit?

Clearly he’s off the main path of messianic expectations. It’s not so simple as this-is-what-was-generally-expected-of-a-messiah.


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