Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 02-24-2008, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Why would someone in Carthage have correspondence with an Emperor?:devil1:

Respectfully querying their tax assessment.
I think there are extant papyri.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

Minimalist · 02-24-2008, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Some christians, apparently, were more radical than others and the Romans tended to regard them as potentially treacherous.

That is what the literature extant would have us conjecture.
The question is whether Pliny and Trajan have been interpolated
at some later date by unscrupulous people who sought mention
of the great and mighty and yet humble and loving NATION
of the soon-to-be-very-supremely-victorius "christians", who
thoughtfully preserved this data for our attention.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

Always a possibility with any ancient writing.

Still....if Christians forged something why not do it in such a way as to make their enemies look bad and themselves look heroic?

aa5874 · 02-24-2008, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

That is what the literature extant would have us conjecture.
The question is whether Pliny and Trajan have been interpolated
at some later date by unscrupulous people who sought mention
of the great and mighty and yet humble and loving NATION
of the soon-to-be-very-supremely-victorius "christians", who
thoughtfully preserved this data for our attention.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

Always a possibility with any ancient writing.

Still....if Christians forged something why not do it in such a way as to make their enemies look bad and themselves look heroic?

Do you have any examples where forged material from Christians made them look bad?

mountainman · 02-24-2008, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

That is what the literature extant would have us conjecture.
The question is whether Pliny and Trajan have been interpolated
at some later date by unscrupulous people who sought mention
of the great and mighty and yet humble and loving NATION
of the soon-to-be-very-supremely-victorius "christians", who
thoughtfully preserved this data for our attention.

Always a possibility with any ancient writing.

Still....if Christians forged something why not do it in such a way as to make their enemies look bad and themselves look heroic?

A good forgery always points away from the forger.
Pragmatism overshadows ethics. We are dealing with
the native cunning of the Roman military mind, and
various legions of fictitious authors -- a literal perversity
and wicked fabrication one arm of which told a simple
gospel story by 4 supposed eyewitness, and the rest
of the fabrication for the purpose of setting it back
300 years before the Council of Nicaea.

Constantine asked the Greek academic priests to evaluate it at Nicaea.
In fact, he forced them to vote on it by signature. What was the opinion of Arius?
Why was Arius expelled?

mountainman · 02-24-2008, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Do you have any examples where forged material from Christians made them look bad?

When the Boss stood up in front of the eastern ascetic priests
and touted the authenticity of his new religion by producing
the wonderful acrostic in the Greek from the Erythean Sibil,
and claimed that it (and a few Roman poets BCE) had
predicted the coming of your man Jesus H.

"Our people have compared
the chronologies with great accuracy,
and the 'age' of the Sibyl's verses
excludes the view that they
are a post-christian fake."

Constantine's Oration, Antioch, 325 CE,
to the (captive and non-christian) ascetic Saints

Usual sort of public relations bullshit.
Think government. If in US think White House.

Is there anyone in this forum who thinks Constantine
is not hitting the red line 100% in the bullshit meter?

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

Minimalist · 02-25-2008, 08:24 AM

I don't see how that makes christians "look bad."

mountainman · 02-25-2008, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Is there anyone in this forum who thinks Constantine
is not hitting the red line 100% in the bullshit meter?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

I don't see how that makes christians "look bad."

See Constantine's Oration to the Saints - commentary by the ancient historian Robin Lane Fox who summarises with:

"the proof was a fraud twice over."

Fraud does not look good IMO.
Best wishes,

Pete Brown

Clivedurdle · 02-25-2008, 01:58 PM

Quote:

About 357 AD the Emperor Constantine ordered that the obelisk should be moved to Constantinople. Despite not having airport luggage handlers in those days the obelisk ended up in Rome instead!

http://www.kingtutshop.com/freeinfo/karnak.htm

Quote:

Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus[2] (27 February ca. 272[1] – 22 May 337), commonly known as Constantine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I

mountainman · 02-25-2008, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

Again, all this says is that the pagans tended to call the heretics Christians, and blame genuine Christians for the misdeeds of the heretics. It certainly doesn't say that there were anyone else but Christians meant by the name

Think carefully about what you have written there - you are showing there are two definitions in circulation - one a generic one, one an in group one - the joke "true Christian (tm)" is exactly about this.

Now how does anyone know which definition is being used in any particular context?

Constantine and Eusebius each made it pretty clear.
Constantine by public executions. Eusebius by writing
the first account of the history of the nation of the
one "true Christian (tm)"

Quote:

And can we please not use the late fourth century propaganda term pagan about the true gods? It is the equivalent of the n word and language biases thinking!

mountainman · 02-25-2008, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

About 357 AD the Emperor Constantine ordered that the obelisk should be moved to Constantinople. Despite not having airport luggage handlers in those days the obelisk ended up in Rome instead!

http://www.kingtutshop.com/freeinfo/karnak.htm

Quote:

Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus[2] (27 February ca. 272[1] – 22 May 337), commonly known as Constantine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I

Yes, they made a mistake with their emperor perhaps.
Constantine pulled it down, Constantius retrieved it.
How the modern christian church sits atop the obelisk of Karnack

A snippet from Ammianus' history ....

Quote:

12. And because sychophants, after their fashion,
kept puffing up Constantius and endlessly dinning it
into his ears that, whereas Octavius Augustus
had brought over two obelisks from the city of
Heliopolis in Egypt, one of which was set up in
the Circus Maximus, the other in the Campus
Martius, as for this one recently brought in, he
neither ventured to meddle with it nor move it,
overawed by the difficulties caused by its size - let
me inform those who do not know it that that early
emperor, after bringing over several obelisks,
passed by this one and left it untouched because
it was consecrated as a special gift to the Sun God,
and because being placed in the sacred part of his
sumptous temple, which might not be profaned,
there it towered aloft like the peak of the world.

13. But Constantine, making little account of that,
tore the huge mass from its foundations; and
since he rightly thought he was committing no
sacrilege if he took this marvel from one temple
and consecrated it at Rome, that is to say, in
the temple of the whole world, he let it lie for a
long time, while the things necessary for its transfer
were bing provided. And when it had been
conveyed down the channel of the Nile and landed
at Alexandria, a ship of a size hitherto unknown was
constructed, to be rowed by three hundred oarsmen.

14. After these provisions, the aforesaid emperor
departed this life and the urgency of the enterprise
waned, but at last the obelisk was loaded on the
ship, after long delay, and brought over the sea and
up the channel of the Tiber, ......

I still dont know when Constantine pulled over the greatest
obelisk in Egypt, but I am guessing it may have been c.324
or 325 CE, simply to set some further examples to the locals.

Best wishes

Pete Brown

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

02-25-2008, 08:24 AM	#56
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	I don't see how that makes christians "look bad."

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.