Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vivisector · 06-09-2011, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vivisector

I think one might read, for example, Mark 2:18 and infer that, at least in Mark's time, there were distinctions between the Jesus people and the John people. Reading Mark's references to JtB, it can almost seem that JtB people were not totally (or at all) accepting of the Jesus people and that Mark, by refusing to say anything bad about JtB or his followers, is trying to win them over while maintaining Jesus's primacy. If (a big "if") this situation is anywhere near correct, then we're again left with the question of why Mark connected Jesus's adoption to baptism by JtB. Of course, the answer could be just as Vork suggested, and Mark made a calculated decision to try to win over the JtB people as part of his creative and/or editorial process.

I wonder if theses references to John's followers may be code for gnostics like the Dositheans.

Great question, though I've often thought that making sense of early Gnosticism (if it's proper to refer to only one) is even tougher than making sense of early Christianity.

Cheers,

V.

JoeWallack · 06-12-2011, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

JW:
I think it's more contrived than that. "Mark's" model =

Teaching Ministry = Moses

Healing Ministry = Elijah/Elisha

Passion Ministry = David

Note that after the Greek Tragedy pivotal recognition scene most of the Jewish Bible allusions are to David including the overall location of Jerusalem. Jesus drives the bad spirit out of the Temple and the Temple drives the good spirit out of Jesus (they just don't write em like that anymore). I have faith that if you calculate the %s for the above it will be relatively high. This would explain why the crucifixion in "Mark" alludes more to the Psalms than 53 even though 53 is a much better parallel.
Joseph

ErrancyWiki

That's interesting. What specific passages from Exodus are paralleled in Mark?

JW:
And than he said unto the Legendary Vorkosigan, Unto you is given the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all things are done in parables:

Jesus starts out teaching:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_1

Quote:

1:21 And they go into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue and taught.

22 And they were astonished at his teaching: For he taught them as having authority, and not as the scribes.

23 And straightway there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,

24 saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus thou Nazarene? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him.

26 And the unclean spirit, tearing him and crying with a loud voice, came out of him.

27 And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What is this? a new teaching! with authority he commandeth even the unclean spirits, and they obey him.

28 And the report of him went out straightway everywhere into all the region of Galilee round about.

29 And straightway, when they were come out of the synagogue, they came into the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John.

30 Now Simon`s wife`s mother lay sick of a fever; and straightway they tell him of her:

31 and he came and took her by the hand, and raised her up; and the fever left her, and she ministered unto them.

32 And at even, when the sun did set, they brought unto him all that were sick, and them that were possessed with demons.

33 And all the city was gathered together at the door.

34 And he healed many that were sick with divers diseases, and cast out many demons; and he suffered not the demons to speak, because they knew him.

35 And in the morning, a great while before day, he rose up and went out, and departed into a desert place, and there prayed.

36 And Simon and they that were with him followed after him;

37 and they found him, and say unto him, All are seeking thee.

38 And he saith unto them, Let us go elsewhere into the next towns, that I may preach there also; for to this end came I forth.

39 And he went into their synagogues throughout all Galilee, preaching and casting out demons.

40 And there cometh to him a leper, beseeching him, and kneeling down to him, and saying unto him, If thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

41 And being moved with compassion [anger], he stretched forth his hand, and touched him, and saith unto him, I will; be thou made clean.

42 And straightway the leprosy departed from him, and he was made clean.

43 And he strictly charged him, and straightway sent him out,

44 and saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go show thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing the things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

JW:
The source you are looking for is Numbers 12

Quote:

12:1 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married; for he had married a Cushite woman.

2 And they said, Hath Jehovah indeed spoken only with Moses? hath he not spoken also with us? And Jehovah heard it.

3 Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men that were upon the face of the earth.

4 And Jehovah spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tent of meeting. And they three came out.

5 And Jehovah came down in a pillar of cloud, and stood at the door of the Tent, and called Aaron and Miriam; and they both came forth.

6 And he said, Hear now my words: if there be a prophet among you, I Jehovah will make myself known unto him in a vision, I will speak with him in a dream.

7 My servant Moses is not so; he is faithful in all my house:

8 with him will I speak mouth to mouth, even manifestly, and not in dark speeches; and the form of Jehovah shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant, against Moses?

9 And the anger of Jehovah was kindled against them; and he departed.

10 And the cloud removed from over the Tent; and, behold, Miriam was leprous, as [white as] snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.

11 And Aaron said unto Moses, Oh, my lord, lay not, I pray thee, sin upon us, for that we have done foolishly, and for that we have sinned.

JW:
In Clark’s criteria for valid parallels an important criterion is Theme. In Mark 1 the main Theme is Authority. Jesus' Authority is revealed at The Baptism. Note that at the Text level it is accepted that Jesus Teaches with Authority. At the underlying Numbers source, the Theme is likewise that Moses teaches with Authority.

Another important criterion is Content. The content of "Mark" here is the reaction to Jesus' authority. Critical scholarship accepts that the original of 1:41 is "anger" and not "compassion". Perhaps Jesus is angry because the leper questions his willingness to heal, "If thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.". This is Jesus' first action of the Galilean Teaching Ministry. The last action of the Galilean Teaching Ministry is:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_3

Quote:

3:1 And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there who had his hand withered.

3:2 And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.

3:3 And he saith unto the man that had his hand withered, Stand forth.

3:4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful on the sabbath day to do good, or to do harm? to save a life, or to kill? But they held their peace.

3:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved at the hardening of their heart, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thy hand. And he stretched it forth; and his hand was restored.

Observe than that at the start and end of the Galilean Teaching Ministry, Jesus possesses the emotion of anger. In between, Jesus' Authority is questioned:

Quote:

2:6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,

7 Why doth this man thus speak? he blasphemeth: who can forgive sins but one, [even] God?

Likewise in Numbers, Moses' Authority is questioned by Miriam and Aron and God's reaction is Anger.

As a side note, the other source here is Paul who wrote, "crucify your Passions." In the Passion Jesus becomes silent. In order to crucify his emotions Jesus needed to possess emotion (anger) during the Teaching and Healing Ministry. "Mark" frames this part of the story with the emotion of Anger at the beginning and end, a technique which "Mark" uses several times.

Another important criterion is similarity in language. Note that in the underlying Numbers the punishment to Mark sin is leprosy. Similarly, the punishment of sin that Jesus removed was leprosy and Jesus finishes by invoking Moses name.

Other parallels:

- Moses associates with someone who did not follow The Law.

- Moses is the meekest person alive or dead

- God comes down in a cloud. The Baptism is a Mishup of Moses/Elijah. Elijah/JtB and Moses/Jesus.

- God speaks directly to Moses (not in "dark speech").

- Sin is sinonymous with leprosy.

The starting point for Jesus' Ministry than has a source of being compared to Moses as an Authorized Teacher. Jesus than goes on to recreate the Elijah/Elisha cycle during the Healing Ministry.

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

aa5874 · 06-12-2011, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

...As a side note, the other source here is Paul who wrote, "crucify your Passions." In the Passion Jesus becomes silent. In order to crucify his emotions Jesus needed to possess emotion (anger) during the Teaching and Healing Ministry. "Mark" frames this part of the story with the emotion of Anger at the beginning and end, a technique which "Mark" uses several times....

The author of gMark did NOT use the Pauline writings at all. A Pauline writer claimed he Got information that Jesus died for our Sins, was Buried and Raised from the dead on the Third Day from a WRITTEN source.

The author of gMark may have used that same WRITTEN SOURCE.

Virtually ALL the details of the Jesus story in gMark cannot be found in the Pauline writings.

"Paul" did NOT even claim Jesus Christ lived in Nazareth or that he performed a single miracle with the SPIT and TOUCH technique.

jgoodguy · 06-12-2011, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgoodguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

You mean SPECULATION and not EXPLANATION.

The claim that John baptized Jesus was either INVENTED by the author, was a story that was told to the author but was known fiction or was a story BELIEVED to be true.

If the claim that Jesus was baptized by John did NOT originate with the author himself then one can ONLY SPECULATE.

We can say instead that aMark edited any other accounts with his own material into Mark.

You mean SPECULATE. You cannot just "say" whatever you like.

We have claims about a character called Jesus in gMark and do not KNOW how those claims were derived so we cannot just simply arbitrarily Imagine their veracity.

Dang it I can say pretty much any thing I wish without prefixing it with "I SPECULATE".

aa5874 · 06-12-2011, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgoodguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

You mean SPECULATE. You cannot just "say" whatever you like.

We have claims about a character called Jesus in gMark and do not KNOW how those claims were derived so we cannot just simply arbitrarily Imagine their veracity.

Dang it I can say pretty much any thing I wish without prefixing it with "I SPECULATE".

Well, that is the fundamental problem here. Some People say anything without acknowledging that they are SPECULATING.

We have the Baptism story in gMark and it is FICTION as described so there is NO need to speculate.

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