Freethought & Rationalism Archive

avi · 07-13-2010, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

'Josephus' and his re-write of history - or to be charitable, his interpretation of history - had friends in high places....

Thanks.

It sounds to me, as though it is even less probable today, than it was yesterday, for example, that "Josephus" wrote first in Aramaic, then in Greek. Officials of the Roman Empire, if that is the true author writing as "Josephus", were not likely, in my limited understanding of Roman governing practice, to emerge from the provinces as non-Latin speaking officials, who nevertheless attain high station and rank, as Jews, practicing their religion in the capital of the Roman Empire.

avi

mountainman · 07-13-2010, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avi

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

The later 4th century conception of the Holy Trinity for example was "borrowed" more or less from the philosophical principles of Plotinus.

Thank you Pete. Well done.

Some would argue that trinitarianism is derived from the even earlier Greek philosopher of distinction: Plato

Yes, I think Plotinus takes his "Holy Trinity" back to Plato.
It is reasonable to see the "Academy of Plato" as a Greek lineage.
I am sure Sopater thought the same way.

Quote:

The metaphysics of Plotinus begins with a Holy Trinity: The One, Spirit and Soul.
These three are not equal, like the Persons of the Holy Trinity; the One is supreme, Spirit comes next, and Soul last.[2]

THE ONE is somewhat shadowy. It is sometimes called God, sometimes called the Good [CHRESTOS]; it transcends Being.

THE NOUS "SPIRIT" - offspring/reflection of the ONE. includes mind - the intellect.

SOUL - offspring of the Divine Intellect. It is double: there is an inner soul, intent on NOUS, and another, which faces the external.

--- History of Western Philosophy - Bertrand Russell - 1945
p.289, Chapter 30 - PLOTINUS (204-270 CE)

Quote:

On the other hand, we do encounter this in Matthew 28:19

Quote:

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

When one is compared to the other we can see exactly what Ammianus Marcellinus means in the 4th century when he refers to the "plain and simple religion of the christians".

maryhelena · 07-13-2010, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avi

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

'Josephus' and his re-write of history - or to be charitable, his interpretation of history - had friends in high places....

Thanks.

It sounds to me, as though it is even less probable today, than it was yesterday, for example, that "Josephus" wrote first in Aramaic, then in Greek. Officials of the Roman Empire, if that is the true author writing as "Josephus", were not likely, in my limited understanding of Roman governing practice, to emerge from the provinces as non-Latin speaking officials, who nevertheless attain high station and rank, as Jews, practicing their religion in the capital of the Roman Empire.

avi

Aramaic would indicate a Palestine/Syrian connection. I'm thinking of a Hasmonean/Herodian source - not a Roman one. My prime candidate is Agrippa II. He was on the scene, in the war - on very close terms with 'Josephus'. Giving the royal stamp of approval.... Intimate knowledge of the Hasmonean/Herodian dynasty...

spamandham · 07-13-2010, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

.... Someone who had the wherewithal to re-write Hasmonean/Herodian history - and get away with it. Sounds like an inside job to me...

All the more so when it is apparent that the history of Justus of Tiberius (seemingly secretary to Agrippa II) went missing - after it got published after the death of Agrippa II. 'Josephus' and his re-write of history - or to be charitable, his interpretation of history - had friends in high places....

Well sure. It's only in the modern western world that a distinction has begun to be made between history and propaganda. In almost all civilizations, they are one and the same. Ancient histories are obviously very useful to our attempts to discern past reality, but they can't just be taken at face value. Their primary purpose is propaganda.

Quote:

Aramaic would indicate a Palestine/Syrian connection. I'm thinking of a Hasmonean/Herodian source - not a Roman one. My prime candidate is Agrippa II. He was on the scene, in the war - on very close terms with 'Josephus'. Giving the royal stamp of approval.... Intimate knowledge of the Hasmonean/Herodian dynasty...

To figure out who commisioned it, just look at who is portrayed as the good guys.

maryhelena · 07-13-2010, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

.... Someone who had the wherewithal to re-write Hasmonean/Herodian history - and get away with it. Sounds like an inside job to me...

All the more so when it is apparent that the history of Justus of Tiberius (seemingly secretary to Agrippa II) went missing - after it got published after the death of Agrippa II. 'Josephus' and his re-write of history - or to be charitable, his interpretation of history - had friends in high places....

Well sure. It's only in the modern western world that a distinction has begun to be made between history and propaganda. In almost all civilizations, they are one and the same. Ancient histories are obviously very useful to our attempts to discern past reality, but they can't just be taken at face value. Their primary purpose is propaganda.

Sure...my point really is to try and deflect criticism of Josephus re being a bad historian. We should not hold him (or whoever it is that is writing under that name) to the standards for writing history today.

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