Layman

How much of Alexander the Great is based on Achilles? The Iliad? Do you ridicule and scorn Plutarch?

spamandham

No we should not conclude that. But then again, should we conclude there WAS a historical Jesus based on that?

In the quest for a historical Jesus, it seems to me the Gospels are mostly useless. We're stuck with what Paul wrote in that quest, and sadly, there is very little that seems to be authentically Pauline to indicate a historical Jesus. What little there is, appears to derive from creeds - possibly inserted later.

Without new discoveries, it seems unlikely we'll be able to resolve the matter. The best we can hope for without that, is to eliminate some options.

Toto

I am not engaging in ridicule - I am calling Chris on his use of ridicule. And since you have shown in your blog post that Alexander consciously based some parts of his life on the portrait of Achilles, I'm not sure what the point of this is.

George S

Nice self-referential example of pilpul. Using a hair-splitting argument to claim the other side is splitting hairs. Beautiful!

andrewcriddle

There are however what seem to be references to Christianity in the Tosefta
usually dated c 300 CE

(A passage similar but shorter to that quoted by No Robots is found in the Tosefta I think in Tosefta Hullin. )

Andrew Criddle

Chris Weimer

? No Robots split no hairs - the statement was Talmud, and he showed him wrong. How is No Robots splitting hairs?

spin

Plutarch isn't thought of as a historian. He's a biographer and his information is used with care. Who would use the Iliad as historical information? Only someone like Schliemann and he didn't help the status of the Iliad.

How much of Alexander was fictional? It doesn't matter too much does it. The physical evidence is overwhelming for his existence. How many coins did Achilles mint under his own name? How many cities that you know of were founded and demonstrably founded at the time of Achilles? What happened to the Persian empire? Who built the mole across to the island of Tyre and destroyed the city? Who left Alexander's inscriptions in Egypt?

We have a historical Alexander who can be tinged by Achilles. One can't say the same thing for a Jesus (who can be tinged by the Hebrew bible). Achilles doesn't supply the events that we remember about Alexander, though the Hebrew bible does supply at least some of the major events we remember about Jesus, his birth, his triumphal entry, various aspects of his passion, etc.


spin

mountainman

On the contrary, I am reasonably sure that the
claim that there exists no unambiguous textual
supporting evidence for the existence of either
Jesus, the gospels or christianity itself, in the
compilations of the Talmud, is a sound claim.


I have started a separate thread to this effect.
Talmud references to Jesus, the Gospels and/or Christianity?

Please respond there, as this thread is clustered
about the term "midrash", if that's reasonable.



My turn to say "Totally wrong".
My position is that chronology is all important
in the historical consideration of the pictures
to be drawn from the evidence.


My claim is that neither the Mishna (c.200 CE) nor the
Gemera (c.300 CE) provide unambiguous support for
any one of Jesus, the gospels, and christianity itself.

If you wish to argue against it, there's a separate
thread waiting, anyone can contribute.

Best wishes,


Pete

mountainman

I think that you'll find that these references
have associated with them a certain degree
of ambiguity. That is, there are many
commentators who dispute that these
references are sound.

Let's dig them out and have a look at them?
I'm game. My bet is that we will be left
with a list of "urban myths".


Best wishes,



Pete

Layman

Plutarch appears to have had some excellent sources about Alexander. His greatest "sin" is probably omission, as with most ancient biographers.

All the evidence for Alexander simply reinforces my point. What the similarities reveal is that historical figures of note can find their lives presented in terms that evoke thoughts of prior literary figures or stories. This was probably more true of early Christian and Jewish writers. I addressed examples of historical events evoking Old Testament stories, figures, and teachings in prior posts. The latest post simply used a well known Greek example.

Now, if you assume the virgin birth story has to be fiction, I can understand why you'd start looking for literary precursors. The theory goes that Luke and Matthew elaborated Mark's simpler story or Paul's letters that contain no birth narrative.

But the same reasoning doesn't apply to the triumphal entry, found rather unelaborated in Mark. Michael Grant frames the possibilities:

Michael Grant, Jesus, An Historian's Review of the Gospels (or via: amazon.co.uk), page 143.

After all, messianic fervor and wannabes were not in short supply at the time.