Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 04-05-2005, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Sentient Duck

Yes,
I understand that... but as I understand it, and I could be way off

, there were two interpretations of Isaiah's prophecy. One was the rather mainstream view that Israel, as a chosen people, were the suffering servant. The other, from what I have gathered, rightly or wrongly, was an Essene interpretation that applied the suffering servant concept to a particular person.

Essenes have nothing to do with the DSS. (I'll happily debate anyone foolish enough to debate the contrary.)

The Thanksgiving Hymns (1QH) deal with a person who is suffering and in his suffering can still thank his god.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Sentient Duck

Anyway, my basic question regarding Daniel was an, evidently a half assed, attempt at asking if it could be possible that Daniel’s prophecy was sincere. And that this prophesy was expected to be fulfilled in and around the time of Christ. That certain groups could have been prepared for it. That one person, Jesus, and his cadre of disciples sincerely expected to fulfill it. That in the end they were sincere, but sincerely mistaken.

Christians usually pass of the Hebrew prophets as fortune tellers, whereas their role was more to keep the Jewish flock in check. The book of Jeremiah paints Jeremiah getting roughly treated for his attempts to call it like he saw it, telling people the awful truth.

It's really only late in the peace where figures from the past are used as means of communicating about the present. Enoch's Animal Apocalypse tells the history tradition of the Jews from go to woe and woe was the time of Judas Maccabaeus and Antiochus IV, also the basic time for the Daniel visions. All of the apocalypse was told in a transparent code, just as much of Daniel is, at least to those who know the history of the period. The indications are that Enoch's Animal Apocalypse and Daniel's visions were written at about the same time. They also both deal with resurrection, a new idea introduced to encourage the resistence fighters to continue the good fight.

Could Daniel be real fortune telling? Well, mutations do happen. Pigs with wings are possible, aren't they?

spin

Toto · 04-05-2005, 10:54 AM

Note - I fixed Jim's URL. Scriptural Age of Accountability.

It says

Quote:

Numbers 4:1-3 shows that the Levites initially began duties at age 30, but the age was evidently lowered to 20 by King David (1Chron. 23:24-26) because Israel was settled in the land, no longer carrying the tabernacle or vessels, and would permanently dwell in Jerusalem.

Amaleq13 · 04-05-2005, 11:02 AM

Thanks, Toto. That certainly doesn't help Jim's math.

[added later]
Unless, of course, he decides to switch to preferring Luke's nativity story which would have Jesus starting his ministry around age 20. Such a switch, of course, would reveal that Jim's main purpose is to manipulate the available information to make the math work.

Jim Larmore · 04-05-2005, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Sentient Duck

Jim said:

This statement and you’re also sorry for your condescension? How about some threats with your condescension sir? Oh, and do you want to super-size that?

Talk about hankys, looks like you need one too

I wasn't making a threat to ex-preacher. I was only making a statement of an expected soon to come massive regret he will experience in spades, thats all. You'll experience the same thing.

Quote:

One wonders at your extensive pre-faith investigations seeing that you identified a hitherto unknown Jewish sect known as the Assenes. Are they a branch off the Satucees?

HITHERTO UNKNOWN? The biggest problem I have is with spelling its ESSENES not ASSENES , go to www.kw.igs.net/~dukerman
to find out how they related to the dead sea scrolls.

Quote:

Actually, as has already been pointed out, abiogenesis has a number of supporting theories that are backed up by physical observations.

Ok bright person name me one physical observation that led to replication of ribozymes or RNA that has occurred totally unassisted and without pre-existing biomolecules from the onset outside of living organisms. You won't find it cause it aint ever happened.

Quote:

Who said anything about a mistake? The term mistake implies an intelligent yet fallible initiator… Atheism posits no such being. A non-god origin of the universe does not logically imply that a mistake has happened.

A non God universe is illogical and is inconsistent with some of the recent findings in quantum mechanics.

Toto · 04-05-2005, 11:43 AM

<mod hat on> Please take the evolution and cosmological arguments to the proper forum. Please keep your personal comments and predictions of hellfire to a minimum. This is a forum for the discussion of Biblical Criticism and History, not preaching.

If anyone thinks that the Essenes and the Dead Sea Scrolls are related, please start a new topic on that.

Also - Jim, please enclose your quoted material in a quote box or mark it off in some way, for clarity.

Jim Larmore · 04-05-2005, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Jim:

Isn't your summary a rather long-winded way of saying "No, actually I have no evidence that Daniel was considered a genuine prophetic work in the 2nd century BC"?

Of course, Daniel COULD have been presented by its author in the 2nd century BC as a "recent discovery of an old book" (in a time before modern forensics) and been accepted immediately.

Not at all theres a lot of evidence that Daniel was written exactly when it is said to be written by conservative scholars. You can read some of them from the websites I've aleady provided or have you just skipped over those sources?

Jim Larmore · 04-05-2005, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Why are you so selective aboout what you respond to and defensive in your responses?

spin

Why do you have to be so abrasive and assuming on things as they apply to me and my posts? I'm not being any more defensive than you are offensive.

Jim Larmore · 04-05-2005, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Sentient Duck

Hey,
For arguments sake here, lets suppose that Daniel’s prophecy was given before the events. Lets say that it was written as a prophecy and was received as such. Lets say that it doesn’t apply to Antiochus’ desecration and is expectant of a Messiah. Now, I don’t know about the Assenes, but didn’t the Essenes have an expectation, in their War Scroll, of a suffering Messiah? Isn’t there some speculation that Jesus was an Essene? Weren’t the Essene leaders called ‘messiahs?’ Didn’t the Essenes expect many things consistent with Christian eschatology?

So, lets say Daniel was ‘Prophetic’ and an up and coming Essene Messiah sets about to preach the end and the arrival of the kingdom per Daniel’s -for the sake of argument- ‘sincere’ weeks/years calculations.

But doph!
He (The Messiah) was wrong!
And Daniel was wrong…
They were sincere, but wrong.

No kingdom came. :huh:

For argument’s sake….

I've never heard of Jesus being ascribed as to be an Essene. He never mentioned it when He was here if He was. Please show me some evidence or reference to support this claim.

Evil Sentient Duck · 04-05-2005, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Larmore

I've never heard of Jesus being ascribed as to be an Essene. He never mentioned it when He was here if He was. Please show me some evidence or reference to support this claim.

See This Book

Also Google it... :wave:

post tenebras lux · 04-05-2005, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Larmore

Being unnecessary doesn't make him not real or non-existent, feces happens is at least a modicum of a concession that evil exists in our world.

Hi Jim, perhaps you missed my earlier post where I asked you to define what you mean by the word evil.
As I suspect that I don't think that 'evil exists in our world', can you kindly explain what you mean by evil?

Thanks.

Quote:

Let me ask you this, do you believe that demon possession exists or is it a hoax?

Do you believe that blindness is caused by demons?

Quote:

Daniel who wrote the book bearing his name was a pious man of God, John the Revelator who wrote Revelations was one of the original 12 apostles and was a pious man of God.

Um, do you have any non-biblical evidence that Daniel was a pious man of God or that he even existed?
Likewise for John, do you have any non-biblical evidence that he was a pious man of God or that he even existed?

Luxie

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04-05-2005, 11:02 AM	#63
Amaleq13 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Eagle River, Alaska Posts: 7,816	Thanks, Toto. That certainly doesn't help Jim's math. [added later] Unless, of course, he decides to switch to preferring Luke's nativity story which would have Jesus starting his ministry around age 20. Such a switch, of course, would reveal that Jim's main purpose is to manipulate the available information to make the math work.

04-05-2005, 11:43 AM	#65
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	<mod hat on> Please take the evolution and cosmological arguments to the proper forum. Please keep your personal comments and predictions of hellfire to a minimum. This is a forum for the discussion of Biblical Criticism and History, not preaching. If anyone thinks that the Essenes and the Dead Sea Scrolls are related, please start a new topic on that. Also - Jim, please enclose your quoted material in a quote box or mark it off in some way, for clarity.

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