Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Wallener · 04-21-2005, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharon45

If there wasn't [heresy], then most Jews would also be christians.

Jews aren't Christians because he failed to meet the criteria for Messiahship. It takes more than not-speaking heresies to achieve that status.

Dharma · 04-21-2005, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wallener

Jews aren't Christians because he failed to meet the criteria for Messiahship. It takes more than not-speaking heresies to achieve that status.

No, Jews aren't Christian because Jesus wasn't Christian and Christianity was a Greco-Roman cult imposed on Judaism, however Jesus seemed to fulfill the criteria for Jewish "Messiahship".
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/messiah.htm

sharon45 · 04-21-2005, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wallener

Jews aren't Christians because he failed to meet the criteria for Messiahship. It takes more than not-speaking heresies to achieve that status.

That, plus speaking as a heretic was the reason. Deut. 13 and 18, jesus was a false prophet.

Chris Weimer · 04-21-2005, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi Chris,

To quote Johnny Depp, "Now that's interesting."

If Joseph was Mary's father and the geneology attached to the gospel of Matthew is trying to prove kingship for Jesus, then it would work just as well if Jesus was married to Mary. Whoever changed Jesus to the son of Mary, rather than the husband, also eliminated one name from the geneology to make Jesus the seventh seventh, instead of Mary. This I believe answers Walter's criticism of your discovery.

I cannot help thinking that it was the misogynist Tertullian who changed the Matthew geneology and wrote the one in Luke. I suggest that he had a real problem with his wife who was beautiful, prophetic and probably much more popular than him in his Montanist clique. It caused him to put in a lot of his misogynist ideology when he put together and rewrote his New Testament.

If this is correct, it suggests that Brown's Da Vinci Code is probably more true than Eusebius' History.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Hello Jay,

Where are you getting the seventh seven from? Aram is the first seven; David is the second seven; Uzziah was the third seven; Jechoniah was the fourth seven; Achim was the fifth seven; Christ, only if Mary is the sixth six, is the sixth seven. Besides, if Joseph was Christ's father (as the Syriacus Sinaiticus has) then he would be the sixth six. Am I miscounting anywhere?

sharon45 · 04-21-2005, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharma

No, Jews aren't Christian because Jesus wasn't Christian and Christianity was a Greco-Roman cult imposed on Judaism, however Jesus seemed to fulfill the criteria for Jewish "Messiahship".
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/messiah.htm

Jesus did not fullfil one aspect of was needed to be the expected 'Messiah'. He said he was the Messiah, but he was a liar.

Dharma · 04-21-2005, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharon45

Jesus did not fullfil one aspect of was needed to be the expected 'Messiah'. He said he was the Messiah, but he was a liar.

I gave you that site with the long, long list of criteria that he supposedly fulfilled from the old testament. Why would you say he was a liar? How would one know?

sMacK · 04-22-2005, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

I can see why the lineage of Jesus was important in the early years of christianity, since there was a serious attempt then to convert Jews, but what's the point, now?
If Jesus is god, what difference does it make what his ancestry is?

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

But by far the overwhelming majority of current Christians are Gentiles, so why should they care about the lineage to David?

Reminds me of a Steve Martin joke. He's going to tell us how to have a million dollars and not pay taxes. First...get a million dollars. Next...when the IRS comes knocking on your door, just say "I forgot".

Okay people, first thing you gotta know is...Jesus is god. Well then, that's all we need to know, isn't it?

Why should they care? Why should I care if they care? Maybe their faith is not as blind as it should be and they can be reasoned with. Maybe. Maybe not.

show_no_mercy · 04-22-2005, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharma

No, Jews aren't Christian because Jesus wasn't Christian and Christianity was a Greco-Roman cult imposed on Judaism, however Jesus seemed to fulfill the criteria for Jewish "Messiahship".
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/messiah.htm

Excuse me while I laugh at the credibility of a site called "jesus-is-lord.com".

Requirements for being the (jewish) Messiah:

He has to be Jewish.
He has to be a direct patrilineal descendant of David through Solomon. (Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1)
He has to rebuild the Temple. (Ezekiel 37:26-28)
He has to bring all the Jews back to Israel.(Isaiah 43:5-6)
He has to cause the world to worship one God.(Zechariah 14:9)
He has to bring world peace.(Isaiah 2:4)

If he fails to meet even one of these requirements, he isn't the Jewish Messiah. He only fulfilled one of these requirements: being Jewish Any other "prophecies" are post-hoc additions, and are not Messainic prophecies at all. The ones listed above are the ONLY Messainic prophecies.

Christians like to say "Oh, he's gonna fulfill all of the requirements (like returning all Jews to Israel) in his second coming" - well then HE'S NOT THE JEWISH MESSIAH! That's like me saying that I'm currently the President of the United States when it's impossible for me to fulfill one of the requirements (being 35 or older). Even though I more than likely will reach 35 one day, I can't say the same for Jesus fulfilling even Isaiah 43:5. Hell, I can't even say that Jesus will be 35 one day...

sharon45 · 04-22-2005, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharma

I gave you that site with the long, long list of criteria that he supposedly fulfilled from the old testament. Why would you say he was a liar? How would one know?

Also as was pointed out elsewhere, it is not exactly a prophecy that the Messiah be Jewish, that is obvious. A real reason for this being a prophecy would be for something hard to attain or at least unexpected like the Messiah being predicted as being a gentile.

While jesus was supposedly Jewish, he was also supposedly god as well and god is not of any religion. It also hasn't been shown if he even existed.

GakuseiDon · 04-22-2005, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Excuse me while I laugh at the credibility of a site called "jesus-is-lord.com".

Requirements for being the (jewish) Messiah:

He has to be Jewish.
He has to be a direct patrilineal descendant of David through Solomon. (Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1)
He has to rebuild the Temple. (Ezekiel 37:26-28)
He has to bring all the Jews back to Israel.(Isaiah 43:5-6)
He has to cause the world to worship one God.(Zechariah 14:9)
He has to bring world peace.(Isaiah 2:4)

If he fails to meet even one of these requirements, he isn't the Jewish Messiah. He only fulfilled one of these requirements: being Jewish

Josephus declared Vespasian as the awaited for Messiah, so I guess he didn't even need to be Jewish.

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