Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Phlox Pyros · 04-08-2006, 01:55 PM

Hmm...I just kind of skipped over the names of the other apocryphal works. Since there was no hype about them, I just assumed that they were probably already known. However, looking through my books on the apocrypha, I do not find them. I would also like to know their content.

Ah...actually, I just located both the "Epistle of Peter to Phillip" and the "First Apocalypse of James". They both appear to be Gnostic texts found among the Nag Hammadi papyri. I located them in The Nag Hammadi Library (or via: amazon.co.uk) edited by James M. Robinson. If you click on the image of the book at amazon, you can thumb through the table of contents and find them both.

So, these texts, at least, were already known, though it would be interesting to see if there are any textual variations from those found at Nag Hammadi.

PhilosopherJay · 04-08-2006, 03:32 PM

Hi Phlox,

The version of the First Apocalypse of James that we have is in bad shape. There are lots of sections missing and lots of part that are unreadable. A complete version would be of enormous value.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phlox Pyros

Hmm...I just kind of skipped over the names of the other apocryphal works. Since there was no hype about them, I just assumed that they were probably already known. However, looking through my books on the apocrypha, I do not find them. I would also like to know their content.

Ah...actually, I just located both the "Epistle of Peter to Phillip" and the "First Apocalypse of James". They both appear to be Gnostic texts found among the Nag Hammadi papyri. I located them in The Nag Hammadi Library (or via: amazon.co.uk) edited by James M. Robinson. If you click on the image of the book at amazon, you can thumb through the table of contents and find them both.

So, these texts, at least, were already known, though it would be interesting to see if there are any textual variations from those found at Nag Hammadi.

Phlox Pyros · 04-08-2006, 06:41 PM

Is this Crum's Coptic Dictionary online???

Crum's A Coptic Dictionary

We need something to go from English back to Coptic to see if we can back translate "celebrate", "celebration", "festival", or some sort of word to see if its root might resemble the word Peter is looking for...

Actually, we might be able to do that with Crum. At the very end, it looks as if there is an English section that lists the Coptic equivalents by page number. I don't have the time to check it out right now, but does this help in translating the word?

Chris Weimer · 04-08-2006, 06:46 PM

The last time I saw that website, it had been taken down due to copyright violations. I didn't realize that it had been back up already. Thanks.

MJ67 · 04-08-2006, 07:38 PM

If i may ask, is there some significance to trying to translate the already translated papyri, which from what I gather is attempted by those with faint knowledge of the language? Since National Geographic released photographs of the text and fully intends to return the papyri itself to Egypt, does anyone doubt the gist of the gospel or expect some conspiratorial agreement as to what it renders in English?

Amaleq13 · 04-08-2006, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ67

If i may ask, is there some significance to trying to translate the already translated papyri, which from what I gather is attempted by those with faint knowledge of the language?

I this exchange from the first page answers your question:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

Now when will an amateur translation or illegal transcription of the English appear on the 'net??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

I'd rather have an amateur translation. Is there anyone out there with Coptic who wants to earn a bit of dosh? If we pass the hat around?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

Roger is right as usual, but I'm making an exception for Coptic studies because one of my goals made several months ago was to get better at Coptic in particular, it being a still underdeveloped field (as opposed to Greek NT studies, which is an aggressively tilled inheritance split over a thousand times, with each minute plot being forced to produce still more--a task made even more difficult by the wild donkeys who trample the area regularly and indolent slugs who would eat away at any hard won results).

Peter Kirby · 04-08-2006, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ67

If i may ask, is there some significance to trying to translate the already translated papyri, which from what I gather is attempted by those with faint knowledge of the language? Since National Geographic released photographs of the text and fully intends to return the papyri itself to Egypt, does anyone doubt the gist of the gospel or expect some conspiratorial agreement as to what it renders in English?

No, I expect the differences not to effect the "gist." I would expect to obtain a better knowledge of what its saying, not a knowledge of it saying something else entirely. Of course, a little Coptic is a dangerous thing.

When I work with the NT text, I will often consult more than one translation, and try to muddle through lexicons and grammars as well, in an attempt to go deeper into the text, to clarify ambiguities that exist in the translation, and to note that which is truly unclear (even when the translation makes it more clear than it is). It's the same principle here. No doubt it would be better if I were more than a dilettante. (Yet even with my limited ability I have found real errors in translations, as well as shades of meaning that are there but obscured by the translation, so it is not without purpose.)

regards,
Peter Kirby

Phlox Pyros · 04-08-2006, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ67

If i may ask, is there some significance to trying to translate the already translated papyri, which from what I gather is attempted by those with faint knowledge of the language?

Welcome to the home of knowledge seekers and skeptics.

andrewcriddle · 04-09-2006, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

There has been nothing about the other texts. The last three items are rumoured to be in the hands of US art dealer Bruce Ferrini. Online rumour has it that he went bankrupt last year, and has been selling bits of papyrus through eBay since. I know of no way to contact him to ask.

I too want to see these texts published.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

According to Marvin Meyer's introduction to the Gospel of Judas the whole of Codex Tchacos (including the Gospel of Judas Leter of Peter to Philip First Revelation of James and the Book of Allogenes) is due to be published in a full critical edition.

(IIUC the Letters of Paul are part of a separate Codex not in the possession of the Maecenas foundation.)

Andrew Criddle

Tholzel · 04-09-2006, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trout

My question would be to any believers that if/when historical evidence surfaces that the basis of biblical stories are false or at the very least "different" is that enough to re-work your beliefs? Are you willing to accept change and how would you deal with it?

And how can one version of what's "holy" or right conflict with another (from the same church) yet everyone just keep on accepting things no matter what?

It's simple, really. Either you BELIEVE what you ar taught, or you are a scientist--who doesn't "believe" anything.

As to the vaunted truth of science, have you been following the scientific path of food suppliments lately? Just about everything that was bad for you is now good for you, and vice a versa. Melatonin doesn't do squat; St John's Wort doesn't do squat; Vitamin E doesn't work; Vitamin C does absolutely nothing for colds; Even the bulletproof prostate herb Palmetto has zero effect on the prostate. With a record like that, it's no wonder the faithful are just not listening to "scientists" any more.

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04-08-2006, 01:55 PM	#41
Phlox Pyros Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: 7th Heaven Posts: 406	Hmm...I just kind of skipped over the names of the other apocryphal works. Since there was no hype about them, I just assumed that they were probably already known. However, looking through my books on the apocrypha, I do not find them. I would also like to know their content. Ah...actually, I just located both the "Epistle of Peter to Phillip" and the "First Apocalypse of James". They both appear to be Gnostic texts found among the Nag Hammadi papyri. I located them in The Nag Hammadi Library (or via: amazon.co.uk) edited by James M. Robinson. If you click on the image of the book at amazon, you can thumb through the table of contents and find them both. So, these texts, at least, were already known, though it would be interesting to see if there are any textual variations from those found at Nag Hammadi.

04-08-2006, 06:41 PM	#43
Phlox Pyros Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: 7th Heaven Posts: 406	Is this Crum's Coptic Dictionary online??? Crum's A Coptic Dictionary We need something to go from English back to Coptic to see if we can back translate "celebrate", "celebration", "festival", or some sort of word to see if its root might resemble the word Peter is looking for... Actually, we might be able to do that with Crum. At the very end, it looks as if there is an English section that lists the Coptic equivalents by page number. I don't have the time to check it out right now, but does this help in translating the word?

04-08-2006, 06:46 PM	#44
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	The last time I saw that website, it had been taken down due to copyright violations. I didn't realize that it had been back up already. Thanks.

04-08-2006, 07:38 PM	#45
MJ67 Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 20	If i may ask, is there some significance to trying to translate the already translated papyri, which from what I gather is attempted by those with faint knowledge of the language? Since National Geographic released photographs of the text and fully intends to return the papyri itself to Egypt, does anyone doubt the gist of the gospel or expect some conspiratorial agreement as to what it renders in English?

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