stephan huller

No one in the gospel correctly identifies Jesus the Christ. That it happens in Matthew is significant because only in Matthew is Peter acknowledged for making this mistake. As I have shown here many times, Clement's version of the statement in chapter 16 has nothing to do with him being 'the Christ' - he identifies Jesus as the Son.

Here's the quote again:

Many also of those who called to the Lord said, “Son of David, have mercy on me (υἱὲ ∆αβίδ, ἐλέησόν με).” A few (ὀλίγοι), too, knew Him as the Son of God (υἱὸν τοῦ θεοῦ); as Peter, whom also He pronounced blessed (ἐμακάρισεν), “for flesh and blood revealed not the truth to him, but His Father in heaven” (ὅτι αὐτῷ σὰρξ καὶ αἷμα οὐκ ἀπεκάλυψε τὴν ἀλήθειαν, ἀλλ' ἢ ὁ πατὴρ αὐτοῦ ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς) —showing that the Gnostic recognises the Son of the Omnipotent, not by the eyes of the flesh conceived in the womb, but by the Father’s own power

stephan huller

The point is that the gospel did not originally identify Jesus as the Christ. This was manipulated later.

spin

No, it wouldn't: it's not analogous. Who would ever think "Simon the so-called Peter"? It doesn't convey the negative "so-called".

tanya

Then, are you writing here, in essence, supporting Earl's very appropriate summary, (including aa5874's contribution, as noted by Earl), of non-linguistic arguments for regarding this passage as a forgery?

I am inquiring if 'the Christ', regardless of whether it ought to have preceded or followed James, in the sentence attributed to Josephus, (as spin and LOM have been debating) represents evidence, in your opinion, based on the text attributed to late second, early third century author Clement of Alexandria, that the 'Christ' business, should represent a third or fourth century interpolation.

If you, and aa5874, and Earl are all correct, then, do not those reflections strengthen spin's argument that this particular phrase is incompatible with other text attributed to Josephus?

But, didn't Clement cite Paul's epistles. Every other word is Christ this or that, in those epistles, so how could Clement's failure, in this one sentence, to name Jesus as 'the christ', but rather, as 'the son', lead us to suspect Josephus' insertion of 'the christ' as forgery?

stephan huller

I think Peter means interpreter in aramaic

stephan huller

And then there is the enigmatic passage in John - Οἴδαμεν ὅτι Μεσσίας ἔρχεται, ὁ λεγόμενος Χριστός

There is something strange here too.

stephan huller

It wasn't just Clement. The Marcionites said Jesus wasn't the Christ and read the gospel that way.

stephan huller

In what sense then is Jesus 'called the Christ' and by whom?

stephan huller

The LXX uses legomenos only once in 3rd Maccabees 1.3 "Dositheus, known as the son of Drimylus"

I don't see how anyone can argue that legomenos isn't odd in Matthew. You'd expect something stronger. My explanation is that it was written in an environment where Jesus was not identified to be the Christ hence the use of legomenos.

Toto

But there is (from scripturetext.com):

Young's Literal Translation
Then one of the twelve, who is called Judas Iscariot, having gone unto the chief priests, said,

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 26:14 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Ed. with Diacritics
Τότε πορευθεὶς εἷς τῶν δώδεκα, ὁ λεγόμενος Ἰούδας Ἰσκαριώτης, πρὸς τοὺς ἀρχιερεῖς

* * *


Young's Literal Translation
and having come to a place called Golgotha, that is called Place of a Skull,

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 27:33 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Ed. with Diacritics
καὶ ἐλθόντες εἰς τόπον λεγόμενον Γολγοθᾶ, ὅ ἐστιν κρανίου τόπος λεγόμενος,

* * *

Young's Literal Translation
And while he is speaking, lo, a multitude, and he who is called Judas, one of the twelve, was coming before them, and he came nigh to Jesus to kiss him,

ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 22:47 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Ed. with Diacritics
Ἔτι αὐτοῦ λαλοῦντος ἰδοὺ ὄχλος, καὶ ὁ λεγόμενος Ἰούδας εἷς τῶν δώδεκα προήρχετο αὐτούς, καὶ ἤγγισεν τῷ Ἰησοῦ φιλῆσαι αὐτόν

* * *

Young's Literal Translation
therefore said Thomas, who is called Didymus, to the fellow-disciples, 'We may go -- we also, that we may die with him,'

ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 11:16 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Ed. with Diacritics
εἶπεν οὖν Θωμᾶς ὁ λεγόμενος Δίδυμος τοῖς συνμαθηταῖς· ἄγωμεν καὶ ἡμεῖς ἵνα ἀποθάνωμεν μετ’ αὐτοῦ.

* * *
Young's Literal Translation
And Thomas, one of the twelve, who is called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came;

ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 20:24 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Ed. with Diacritics
Θωμᾶς δὲ εἷς ἐκ τῶν δώδεκα, ὁ λεγόμενος Δίδυμος, οὐκ ἦν μετ’ αὐτῶν ὅτε ἦλθεν Ἰησοῦς.

* * *

Young's Literal Translation
and Jesus who is called Justus, who are of the circumcision: these only are fellow-workers for the reign of God who did become a comfort to me.

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΛΟΣΣΑΕΙΣ 4:11 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Ed. with Diacritics
καί Ἰησοῦς ὁ λέγω Ἰοῦστος ὁ εἰμί ἐκ περιτομή οὗτος μόνος συνεργός εἰς ὁ βασιλεία ὁ θεός ὅστις γίνομαι ἐγώ παρηγορία

* * *

and a few more.

None of these seem to carry the implication of "so called."