Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Malachi151 · 07-24-2008, 05:12 AM

Finkelstein makes the case for a 7th century writing of the bulk of the Hebrew Bible, so where does this 6th century claim come from?

Littlejohn · 07-24-2008, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Littlejohn

There are now more than five years since I started posting on Italian forums that "Yahweh" had a "paredra" (comrade-wife), in this case Asherat-Asthart, "stolen" to the mythology phoenician- canaanean [Astarte, according to this mythology, was the paredra of Baal, a Phoenician likely attribute (Lord) for El, the supreme god of the world Phoenician and Semitic in general].

I'm not sure if "stolen" is quite the right phrase, even in scare quotes. It is probably more a case of evolution. "Stolen" implies that the Israelite religion (whatever that was) already existed, and then, one sunny day, the Israelites decided to somehow incorporate Ishtar/Astarte/Whoever into their already existing religion. I think it is more likely that the Israelite religion slowly evolved, its ancestors including Phoenicia, Babylonia and (hence) Sumeria. So the pair Yahweh/Astarte (or whatever the names exactly were) would have been there from the beginning. During evolution, Yahweh's female companion was pushed back, finally into extinction.

Gerard Stafleu

Hi Gerard!

I do not believe that the Israelite religion (or hebraic, more correctly) was earlier than phoenician-canaanean. Surely it were two of its major components: that egyptian and that mesopotamian. However, the Jewish religion was a synthesis of these two components, "sincreticamente" mixed with elements of canaanean world. This allowed to "Eberim" (*) to govern at length on the restless canaaneans. In this way, canaaneans had their religious freedom, which, however, soon came into conflict with the religious dominant caste: namely that jewish. The recurrenting clashes between canaanean religious forces and Jewish religious forces, as reported by the same Bible (see Elijah), constitute the best evidence.

Quote:

So the pair Yahweh/Astarte (or whatever the names exactly were) would have been there from the beginning

Yahweh was a nickname for AMEN/AMON, the greater gods of Egypt, of which Moses was a high priest in "Diospolis" or Thebes. His "paredra" was Mut and their son (tebhean trinity) was Konshu (or Kenshu). More complex situation was the "family" of the God of Abraham.

Perhaps, for greater precision, it could be argued that the "Eberim" replaced in canaanean divine pair the figure of Baal, putting in its place that of Amen/Yaweh.

My best

_______________

Note:

(*) - whose strength was not capable of withstanding long a climate of intolerance on the part of submissive canaaneans, although "eberim" could rely on their alliance with the Egyptians, from which within one originated the first proto-hebraic nucleus .

Littlejohn
.

Doug Shaver · 07-24-2008, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve

Don't people like the AFA read anything but the KJV of the bible?

Sure, they do. A lot of them, anyway.

They just don't believe any of it except what agrees with KJV.

Doug Shaver · 07-24-2008, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve

an annual contribution to PBS every year.

That'll be a neat trick if you can pull it off

Cege · 07-24-2008, 08:49 AM

When is this program scheduled to air?

badger3k · 07-24-2008, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Finkelstein makes the case for a 7th century writing of the bulk of the Hebrew Bible, so where does this 6th century claim come from?

One of the hypotheses is that the bulk of the writing/editing took place after the return from Babylon, when the priests pretty much took control - I think this is the First? Second? Temple Period...

Argh - at work and trying to resolve a computer issue. Not a good idea to post and think other thoughts at the same time. Anyway, that is the general idea, IIRC. Apologies if I got this wrong, though, just to be on the safe side.

Cesc · 07-24-2008, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

During evolution, Yahweh's female companion was pushed back, finally into extinction.

Or she became "the Spritit of God".

Malachi151 · 07-24-2008, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cege

When is this program scheduled to air?

From the OP:

Quote:

But participants in “The Bible’s Buried Secrets,” a two-hour special airing Nov. 18 on the PBS program, promised this morning that the show would trigger a fair share of controversy.

Malachi151 · 07-26-2008, 03:16 AM

By the way, the fact that "God" had a wife seems to be fairly mainstream knowledge in Biblical scholarship. My Study Bible actually points this out.

From the Harper Collins Study Bible:

Quote:

By a remarkable act of theological reduction, the complex divine hierarchy of prior polytheistic religion was transformed into the authority of a sole high god in classical Israelite religion. YHWH was not, however, the only god in the Israelite religion. Like a king in his court, YHWH was served by lesser deities, variously called "the sons of God," "the host of heaven," and similar titles. ... The tripartite hierarchy of the divine world - YHWH, the sons of God or heavenly host, and the angels - derives from the earlier structure of Canaanite religion. According to the Ugarit and other Canaanite sources, the high god of the Canaanite pantheon was El (whose name means "God"), and his wife, the mother of the gods, was Asherah. The other gods of the pantheon are collectively called "the children of El" and are subordinate to El's authority, although some are prominent deities. ... On the level of high god, El seems to have merged with YHWH, who absorbs El's name and has many of his attributes. Asherah in Israelite religion becomes the name of a sacred pole or tree in local YHWH shrines, although there are hints in some texts that she was worshiped as a goddess in some times and places.

So, although "controversial" in among the laity, this is apparently no a controversial fact among scholars. This section in the Harper Collins Study Bible was written by Ronald Hendel.

andrewcriddle · 07-26-2008, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

By the way, the fact that "God" had a wife seems to be fairly mainstream knowledge in Biblical scholarship. My Study Bible actually points this out.

From the Harper Collins Study Bible:

Quote:

By a remarkable act of theological reduction, the complex divine hierarchy of prior polytheistic religion was transformed into the authority of a sole high god in classical Israelite religion. YHWH was not, however, the only god in the Israelite religion. Like a king in his court, YHWH was served by lesser deities, variously called "the sons of God," "the host of heaven," and similar titles. ... The tripartite hierarchy of the divine world - YHWH, the sons of God or heavenly host, and the angels - derives from the earlier structure of Canaanite religion. According to the Ugarit and other Canaanite sources, the high god of the Canaanite pantheon was El (whose name means "God"), and his wife, the mother of the gods, was Asherah. The other gods of the pantheon are collectively called "the children of El" and are subordinate to El's authority, although some are prominent deities. ... On the level of high god, El seems to have merged with YHWH, who absorbs El's name and has many of his attributes. Asherah in Israelite religion becomes the name of a sacred pole or tree in local YHWH shrines, although there are hints in some texts that she was worshiped as a goddess in some times and places.

So, although "controversial" in among the laity, this is apparently no a controversial fact among scholars. This section in the Harper Collins Study Bible was written by Ronald Hendel.

This passage

Quote:

Asherah in Israelite religion becomes the name of a sacred pole or tree in local YHWH shrines, although there are hints in some texts that she was worshiped as a goddess in some times and places

amounts to saying that some Israelites at some times probably regarded Asherah as the wife of YHWH.

This is a good summary statement of the present state of knowledge. Much better than the oversimplified claim

Quote:

The Israelites believed that God had a wife.

Andrew Criddle

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07-24-2008, 05:12 AM	#11
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Finkelstein makes the case for a 7th century writing of the bulk of the Hebrew Bible, so where does this 6th century claim come from?

07-24-2008, 08:49 AM	#15
Cege Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: 36078 Posts: 849	When is this program scheduled to air?

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