Elijah

Like there is many people in the world or a great percentage of people are capable? Over ten years with no results would be time for me to rethink my strategy.
I’m a little confused about what you are actually proposing. Are you trying to build an alternate society based around spiritual/mystical people having a more prominent role? Or is it something like gathering of the Elect type of deal where you’re trying to get the gifted individuals to work together to try to accomplish some goal?
I thought you considered yourself common folk? What are you trying to reproduce that Christ did that you don’t think the average person could reproduce? I think of Paul as a super genius but not a mystic… elect sure, but not a mystic. What Paul reproduces of Jesus isn’t a mystic but a martyr. Just like what Stephen reproduced as a sign of his conviction in Jesus as the Christ. You have to understand the line of martyrs to understand the sacrifice. And you have to put that superstitious disposition towards him on the cross away. Brunner and Spinoza can’t be right about everything can they?
I think if you lose that centered around Brunner’s work you may see some numbers increase. And clearly present what you are trying to accomplish because you haven’t really done that. What I know about this is from mainly me asking. You should have your pitch (not someone else’s quote) ready and clearly understandable.
Why do spiritual people need to be separate? I don’t even know how that would be possible.

That empire can destroy whatever you can put together. The idea may remain but as long as the idea of the empire remains also then no spiritual nation has any possibility of long-term survival.
You have a model ready to deal with it? Or for Brunner’s ideas to survive future Brunnerians’ persecution/genocide?

No Robots

I think that there is clear evidence that there is a substantial number of people who hunger for a more spiritually oriented life.

I didn’t say there were no results. At least more people have heard about Brunner. And there has been new interest in Brunner unrelated to my efforts. As for myself, I am constantly seeking new strategies. But I don’t think that there’s a magic bullet that is going to bring waves of people to Brunner. Brunner himself was very aware of the difficulty of gaining large numbers of adherents.

Both, I guess. I don’t really see much difference between the options.

There are two kinds of spiritually oriented people. There are those who are spiritually creative. These are the artists, philosophers and mystics. Then there are those who are spiritually receptive. These are people who want to mold their lives in accordance with the principles of spiritual creativity. I put myself in the latter group.

The hallmark of common thinking is the imitation of Christ, which is what we have with Christian religion. True spiritual Christianity wants to reproduce his effects, to awaken people spiritually and to group the spiritually awake together under him.

I am completely unable to discover the slightest flaw in their thinking. I have done my utmost to expose Brunner’s thought to criticism, and to read all the criticism of him that I can find. None of it has done anything but reinforce my conviction that he represents one of the true giants of thought. He offers modern man a complete reboot of all aspects of thought.

There are many spiritually-oriented movements. I want to see them grow. But I think that Brunner’s work provides the key to the long-term stability of spiritually-oriented living. So, I’m going to concentrate my effort specifically on his work.

I’ll work on it.

It is because their thought and therefore their life, their very being, is on a fundamentally different basis from that of the general society. There are two species of men, divided by the way they think.

Some small steps have already been taken. This is a new idea and its growth was retarded by the Nazi disaster. And the current state of general society is hostile to any claims of spiritual/intellectual thought.

The empire denies the reality of spirit. It thus cannot attack what it does not believe exists. It can only attack by asserting that spirit does not exist. This is the big danger for spiritually oriented people today, that they will come to believe the empire’s propaganda that all talk of spirit is absurd.

Both. Many survived the Nazis specifically by applying Brunner’s approach. And of course, Brunner’s work is a blueprint for how to oppose tyranny and advance the cause of democracy.

Elijah

This still doesn’t tell me what you think the breakdown is going to look like.
I’m still unsure of the society you are trying to build or what you are expecting to happen.
One is trying to create an actual alternate society that will bring attention to the divide between spiritual and aspiritual people, which could lead to huge huge problems. The other is more of an informal gathering like here on iidb/frdb can be seen as likeminded individuals trying to work collectively to solve a problem.
Maybe there are two types of common folk; those who imitate other common folk and those who imitate spiritual people. Or maybe you’re right about two types of spiritual people but I think the molder/moldy dichotomy has to do with confidence not to spiritual archetype. Actually I’m pretty sure of it.
I’m unsure by what you mean by spiritual awaking people, how it’s accomplished or the percentage of people capable. I can’t say Jesus’ sacrifice opened people up spiritually, but it was an act of conviction that the common folk could imitate to spread his faith. Awaken spiritually sounds like awareness gained after experimentation with psychedelics more than religious conversion.
Well him and Spinoza both seemed to misunderstand the point of his sacrifice due to a predisposed superstitious understanding of sacrifice. That’s an obvious mistake in Brunner’s work in regards to Christ.
What do you think the key is? Maybe it could be useful in other already established spiritual communities so you don’t have to bring the lake to the horse and build a community around one particular idea. If you are specific enough about what you are trying to do then the people who don’t join your community can still bring back your key to a spiritual communities survival in such a harsh world. Why isn’t the formation of Israel after the holocaust considered the formation of your spiritual community?
You have a perfect opportunity to practice here. Practice makes perfect.
There aren’t two species, its two different life paths that have to do with an individual’s particular experience/choices/upbringing in this world. People don’t fall into set categories of spiritual and common folk, there is a gradient of varying degrees between worldly and spiritual that is determined by how you were raised and nothing to do with your genetics (hopefully).

Yes if a person thinks spiritually long enough then he is going to think and behave differently than a person who has concerned himself with interests in society, but that is solved by keeping the two groups interacting and encouraging pursuits that force spiritual people to interact with the common folk more and the common folk to consider spiritual pursuits more often. In my opinion they will naturally turn towards more spiritual interests once they have the free time to do so and are free from the concerns/slavery of this world. A person doesn’t need to be exposed to other spiritual people to become spiritual they need time alone engaging with the spirit in some type of creative pursuit. Are you trying to create a society of people who act spiritual or who are spiritual?
What’s new about this? It seems like a spiritual person trying to make a separate spiritual community would be considered standard operating procedure.
It can and will attack any threat to the status quo. As soon as you get the people to believe that what you are proposing can help free the people is as soon as the empire meme will start to get rid of you. Whether a person believes in or understands the spirit matters little compared to their safety and freedom. It’s not them bad mouthing spiritual concepts you should be worried about, it’s literally destroying, with war, any society you try to build that you think is going to compete against what’s been going on for the last ten thousand years or more on this planet.
What was Brunner’s approach that saved them? It seems like a blueprint to get the tyrants’ attention and get them focused on attacking spiritual people, not the other way around.

A lot of my thinking on this may be because of my favorite modern Jewish philosopher, Stanley Leiber aka Stan lee. I don’t know how familiar you are with American comic books but they actually deal a lot with how the more able people in the world should deal with the rest of society. Instead of spiritual people though it’s mutants and radioactive superheroes trying to decide on how to best use their powers. The two basic camps are to use your abilities to help and serve the people (the good guys/sons of man) or to use your abilities to prosper or gain power over the people. (the bad guys/rulers of man) The guys who want to create the separate society like Magneto are always the bad guys and always lead to the regular humans freaking out and sending giant robots to lock the mutants up in camps eventually.

The bad guy always means well. They always imagine a better society while complaining of the shortcomings of this society but all it ever leads to is conflict between the two societies. I’m not saying your plan is going to lead to giant robots just that if you don’t have a plan for conflict with the society you are planning on replacing then you don’t have a plan for a viable spiritual community.

No Robots

I really don’t know. I speculate that people of a spiritual inclination are a substantial minority, perhaps even a majority; but they have been bullied and oppressed to the point of persecuting themselves and others of their own kind.

I guess I’m a little unsure myself. What I do know is that I have never felt part of any community except this one. For me personally, it is the comfort of knowing that I am part of this community, howsoever immaterial it may be at present, that provides me with the only real sense of security I have ever had.

I think there is a role for both, an inner and outer aspect.

Absolutely.

I know for a fact that, however confident I may be, I don’t have a single truly creative impulse in me. Our society doesn’t value those who are receptive. Readers, for example, are far less esteemed than writers. But I am quite certain that being a good reader is every bit as much a talent as being a good writer. And where would the writer be without his reader? And to be a good reader means acting on the basis of the demands made by the writer.

All I know is what I myself experienced when I picked up Brunner’s book for the first time. It truly was love at first sight, and that love has only deepened over time. I am very lucky that his work was translated into English and published. My goal is to help other people who might have a similar experience by making it easier for them to find out about Brunner.

Scientific rigour and comprehensiveness. Spirituality and science must march together.

I do hope that Brunner’s approach will come to the assistance of spiritually-oriented communities without them having to explicitly embrace him. But someone has to stay close to the source.

Many of the leading lights in the foundation of Israel were familiar with Brunner, and some endorsed his approach. This is a chapter of history that is yet to be written. But for Brunner, the true Israel will always be the spiritual Israel, the community of spiritually-oriented people.

Yep. And thanks so much for helping me put all this together.

In my view, the idea is to allow spiritually oriented people to spend more time with their own kind. The community acts as a magnet and touchstone.

It is the specifically Brunner-related approach to this that is quite new.

You’ve mentioned sci-fi, so let me say that what we have in this community is sort of like the Jedi society. Its whole object is to promote the Republic and combat the Empire.

To stop playing at being Jews, that is, to stop making any material manifestation of their inner spiritual Judaism.

Not at all. I tell you, they can’t even see it, let alone attack it. They simply cannot process in any way the dialectic of spiritual/intellectual community and mass society. Their whole being rejects this. It is simply unthinkable for them. They cannot assimilate it, they cannot imitate it. They cannot even go far in criticizing it.

Xavier is correct that the mutants must have their own society, and they must be prepared to protect it. Xavier may see that the mutants could be of some help to non-mutants, but his first responsibility is to his own kind.

Elijah

That’s a lot more then I was expecting.
Community is good and I am by no means trying to separate you from your group or from organized spiritual activity. I’m just adding in my opinion in regards to what could be trouble down the line. And making sure you are still thinking for yourself. You should be able to preserve your community and admit errors in Brunner’s work and if you can’t then that’s probably the first thing that should be addressed in your group. The times have changed and the information available has changed so it’s fair to assume his views would have changed as well so you need to figure out what Brunner would have realized with this new influx of ideas we have available to us now online.
I see the necessity of a spiritual community to communicate and share ideas but not to create a separate society. There just doesn’t seem to be any need and only increases the risk of conflict.
I’m right. Trust me on this. It comes down to confidence. Everybody is creative in some way. Creativity manifests itself everywhere. With the reader example when they aren’t reading they are imagining different scenarios on the story or if they were there or what they would have done differently. Now the only way you ever decide to move that creativity from the mental into the actual has to do with confidence. It’s when you’re reading something and go “I can do better than this crap” that you actually start thinking about creating your own work.

This creativity with confidence extends through everything. Once you have enough experience and confidence you will start to try to rearrange what you’ve learned into new creative presentations. Doesn’t matter if it’s philosophy, art, music, sports, engineering, politics, acting, business or anything you could imagine I would guess. Active creativity comes down to confidence because everyone is creative, it’s just do we have the confidence to actually manifest what we imagine for the world to see and criticize.
Sounds like basic inspiration to me. I didn’t know if you were talking opening third eye stuff. What in particular about his work spoke to you? Was it the spiritual/common folk divide or his explanation of the metaphysical/spiritual?
That seems confusing. What is science going to do for spirituality? How are you using the word “science” specifically here?
Just pointing out that there are other ways to get what Brunner was hoping for then creating a community around his idea, you can bring the idea to an already established community which may be more effective, especially if you need a certain number of people to reach a catch point where the idea becomes more active.
I can agree with the spiritual Israel statement, but I’m just curious what you would hope to do different then was done there.
I think the internet is taking care of creating that society, naturally for you. I think it’s the direction the spiritual community needs to be headed is what you should be focused on. Once you get the direction the people who agree with that direction will be more likely to join up then a spiritual group with no direction.
Can you summarize what that is exactly?
That Jedi’s operate more as protectors throughout the galaxy. They aren’t trying to create a separate society to use as an example. In this situation I would say that the Jedi’s should be focused on eliminating the Sith(rulers of man) not trying to create another society.
So they stopped acting like Jews so they weren’t noticed/messed with? Does he promote getting rid of their outward culture to focus on their spiritual nature?
You are taking a way too spiritual approach to tanks and bullets going though the heads of your loved ones. They don’t have to understand what you are trying to do. All they have to do is see that the people aren’t working or are complaining because of an idea coming from your community and then the empire will do what it’s built to do.
Xavier is for the “school” model, Magneto is for creating the separate society. Xavier hopes that mutants and humans can live peacefully together. Magneto is “let’s build a society and do this right where we are the dominate species” which is what sounds like you are pitching. A spiritual school sure. A spiritual society separate from this one really really needs to be thought-out beforehand.

No Robots

I am constantly correlating Brunner's insights with new scientific work. Science bears him out completely.

What I see is a society in which everyone believes that they are creative, and no one at all is receptive.

It was the clarity, depth and passion of his writing. Only later did I find out about the theoretical basis of his work.

Arm it, provide it with the practical tools necessary to protect it from attack. Also, simply help it achieve its ultimate goal: a better understanding of nature and thus a higher quality of life.

Science is systematic inquiry into phenomena. Systemic inquiry is the practical application of philosophy. Philosophy is spiritual knowledge, ie. knowledge that proceeds from the assertion of the essential oneness of all phenomena.

The idea is not to create a state or society, but a community.

It is the specifically scientific orientation, and especially the doctrine of the spiritual community as the foundation of social science, that makes Brunner's work completely novel.

That is what they do for the Republic, but that is not what they are in their essence. They are a distinct type of being.

They have their own community. And perhaps their community does serve as a model for the Republic at large.

The principle of the Sith is also an eternal type. It cannot be eliminated.

Yes. They also had, dating from well before the crisis, a thorough analysis of the problem which permitted them to respond practically and effectively. I must make clear, though, that many did perish, including Brunner's widow and step-daughter.

Yes.

Behold I send you as sheep in the midst of wolves. Be ye therefore wise as serpents and simple as doves.—Mt. 10:16

I do not preach war against or domination of general society. However, I do not preach living peacefully together. Side-by-side, yes; together, no. Good fences make good neighbors. Xavier operates more than a school: it is a command center and an asylum.

Solo

One cannot be a mystic and claim to be a mystic. One is a mystic when two out of three examining psychiatrists believe his claim that he is a fire-truck.

Jiri

No Robots

Just be careful of mystics working as hotdog vendors. If you ask them to make you one with everything, they'll say they already have.

Elijah

This science stuff is confusing. How is science going to show he was right or wrong about the Christ sacrifice?
I don’t know about people being unaware of being receptive. I hear “I’m not creative” more than “I’m not receptive” (which I’m not sure what would actually sound like). You can’t be creative without being receptive. All creativity is rearranging the unique collection of forms you’ve received. The reason people don’t see themselves as creative and others is usually they just see their influences in their work and see the unique in other peoples work unaware of the other person’s influences.
It was the style not the substance that attracted you?
It’s like we are having the Gnostic vs orthodox debate. You believe in some type of knowledge (gnosis) gain or spiritual development is what Jesus had in mind and I’m just faith in him as the Christ is all that is needed.
I don’t know if science is what the spiritual community needs or another Spinoza to reestablish what the current language is in regards to the spiritual because right now it’s total chaos. You need someone popular to say these are the words we are using and how we are going to be using them. All the old words are obsolete or need modifying due to superstitious and materialistic interpretations.
Good! Need to help promote that idea some in Islam as well.
The science thing is still not clicking with me on what you think it’s going to help or do.
I would say they are more of an archetype then a distinct type of being. But regardless I’m understanding that you aren’t so much trying to create an actual separate society.
No. I think the goal is to train special people and for them to serve the whole society.
I would bring this up as well in discussion with your group. I most certainly believe the ruler of man can be cast out literally and spiritually. Sounds more like backing down from a fight with the only people who could actually beat you.
Wow. You should just promote that and see if you can get some attention. Especially if you throw in some Jewish vs Jew inwardly stuff, you could really get some people riled up.
Not sure what this was supposed to say towards the discussion but I seem to be understanding you as not creating an actual separate society which Is what I was worried about.
It’s a school that can serve as a command center during war or an asylum when mutants are being persecuted, but it’s intended to be a school to teach gifted children to use their powers to help serve mankind.

No Robots

It is a fundamental question of social science, and Brunner's doctrine provides the greatest insight into it. I can only talk about what I understand of sacrifice. Society is like The Lord of the Flies, with the murderous mob that demands sacrifice, eventually removing the distinction between sacrifice and murder. To defy this is to court retribution. Christ was murdered for defying the murderous impulse of society. His followers continue to oppose this impulse.

Q.E.D.

No. I like the style, but it was the content that impressed me. That's what I meant by clarity and depth. I guess in the case of a great writer, style and substance are almost the same thing. It was for me the overall impression of great truth told in a great way.

Yeah, I guess so.

Totally. Spinoza provides a purified language, but it is austere. Brunner's language seems florid and bombastic, but it is very tightly controlled and precise. He only has about a dozen key words.

Perhaps it would help to read a speech given by one of Brunner's followers. Here is the link to my blog entry, which in turn provides access to the speech.

Brunner did get people riled up. Perhaps more of them should have listened. Brunner's work is gaining prominence in discussions about the Holocaust. See here and here.

You see the Jedi and the X-Men as servants of mankind, whereas I see them as having a beingness that is their own, which they may put to work for the benefit of mankind. Men are useful to each other, but they mustn't be made into instruments of each other.