Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 02-09-2008, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Yours does seem to be a case of selective reading, Andrew. It is about forgiveness, but the mechanism clearly supports the use of torture, but you read past it, probably saying, "well, he deserved it", and concentrated on the text and not the subtext.

It assumes the world of Late Antiquity in which the use of torture was an everyday fact of life. I don't think it is explicitly approving or disapproving of this fact of life.

By the main character, a favored figure, employing it, the text shows its approval. It is taken for granted and seen as a just end. I don't understand why you're trying to resurrect this zombie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

One could maybe argue that to refer to such an ugly practice without explicit disapproval is itself problematical, but if so it is a general problem about the parables. which frequently refer to the harsh side of life in the world at that time (exploitative absentee landlords, harsh employers etc), to make their (IMO generally edifying) points.

They are a reflection of their times.

One of the important things we should have learned over the last 40 years is that the medium is just as important as the message.

spin

sugarhitman · 02-09-2008, 07:00 AM

The point of this parable is that if you will not forgive others their trespasses against you then how can you expect God to forgive you of your trespasses against Him? That makes a lot of sense. An unforgiving person is a hard hearted, cold individual. Look at the story the man who owed the unforgiving person begged him to forgive him which showed a sincere plea for forgiveness, but this hard hearted man had him taken away. Should God forgive someone who does not forgive others? This my friends is the moral thinking of people who write such OPs. They believe that evil should go unpunished and accuse God for punishing sin and evil.....Moral Anarchists.

Steven Carr · 02-09-2008, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

It may be my bias; but I find it a bit regrettable that a story with the point that we should try to be forgiving of each other, because of our own need for forgiveness, is being read as advocating torture.

Andrew Criddle

It's your parable.

Apparently, Jesus wants us to know that this alleged god draw his role-models from people who pretend to forgive others, and then hand them over to be tortured, even when they are not owed anything.

spin · 02-09-2008, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

The point of this parable is...

Message, medium, difficult to separate. Medium contains torture. Torture is integral to story. Torture is the "just dessert" of the bad guy. Justifies torture. End of discussion. Repeating message gets us nowhere. It was known before the thread started.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

...that if you will not forgive others their trespasses against you then how can you expect God to forgive you of your trespasses against Him? That makes a lot of sense. An unforgiving person is a hard hearted, cold individual. Look at the story the man who owed the unforgiving person begged him to forgive him which showed a sincere plea for forgiveness, but this hard hearted man had him taken away. Should God forgive someone who does not forgive others? This my friends is the moral thinking of people who write such OPs. They believe that evil should go unpunished and accuse God for punishing sin and evil.....Moral Anarchists.

Please do not try to lecture people about morals. You do what you are told apparently by someone whose morals you are in no position to fathom.

Any morals you have have been taught to you despite your religious beliefs and you don't look closely at the morals that lie beneath the surface of the ancient religion you are here to disseminate. I doubt whether you'd be in favor of slavery though it is ingrained in the Hebrew bible and accepted as the way of the world in the christian literature. I doubt whether you'd advocate the stoning of children for whatever silly reason given in the Hebrew bible. Do you advocate the sexist values of the societies that produced the bible? I doubt it at least a little.

The morals you have aren't christian per se and have been instilled by your society and your parents' involvement in the society. Perhaps 150 years ago you would have supported slavery and used the bible to support your case. Perhaps 100 years ago you would have argued against women going to universities or getting the vote. Would you with your precursors have actively fought against any scientific development that questioned your dogma? Those developments eventually gave you refrigerators and cars, electricity and computers, space travel, America's political dominance in today's world.

Morality is not a realm of religion.

spin

Roger Pearse · 02-09-2008, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

It may be my bias; but I find it a bit regrettable that a story with the point that we should try to be forgiving of each other, because of our own need for forgiveness, is being read as advocating torture.

I think so too. Sad to see something turned inside out like that.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

silentkiller · 02-09-2008, 07:55 AM

I don't see a problem with this parable. The king was owed a large sum of money and he forgave his servant, and the servant was owed a small sum of money by another servant and he dealt harshly with the servant who owed him the small sum. Is it not the king's right by his authority to have the man who owed him the large amount of money punished for his transgression toward his fellow servant?

reniaa · 02-09-2008, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

It may be my bias; but I find it a bit regrettable that a story with the point that we should try to be forgiving of each other, because of our own need for forgiveness, is being read as advocating torture.

I think so too. Sad to see something turned inside out like that.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

I agree they are twisting parables and how can they throw stones on torture consider the following from current news....

Quote:

U.N. says waterboarding should be prosecuted as torture
Fri Feb 8, 2008 11:05 PM GMT
(Reuters) - The controversial interrogation technique known as waterboarding and used by the United States qualifies as torture, the U.N. human rights chief said on Friday.

"I would have no problems with describing this practice as falling under the prohibition of torture," the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights, Louise Arbour, told a news conference in Mexico City.

Arbour made her comment in response to a question about whether U.S. officials could be tried for the use of waterboarding that referred to CIA director Michael Hayden telling Congress on Tuesday his agency had used waterboarding on three detainees captured after the September 11 attacks.

Violators of the U.N. Convention against Torture should be prosecuted under the principle of 'universal jurisdiction' which allows countries to try accused war criminals from other nations, Arbour said.

"There are several precedents worldwide of states exercising their universal jurisdiction ... to enforce the torture convention and we can only hope that we will see more and more of these avenues of redress," Arbour said.

The U.S. Congress is considering banning the practice, in which prisoners are immobilized and water is poured into their breathing passages to simulate drowning

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/arti...TORTURE-UN.xml

spin · 02-09-2008, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reniaa

how can they throw stones on torture consider the following from current news....

Who's "they"? The leaders who pay with notes that say "In god we trust"? who proudly sing "god save 'Mer'ca"?

spin

sugarhitman · 02-09-2008, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

The point of this parable is...

Message, medium, difficult to separate. Medium contains torture. Torture is integral to story. Torture is the "just dessert" of the bad guy. Justifies torture. End of discussion. Repeating message gets us nowhere. It was known before the thread started.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

...that if you will not forgive others their trespasses against you then how can you expect God to forgive you of your trespasses against Him? That makes a lot of sense. An unforgiving person is a hard hearted, cold individual. Look at the story the man who owed the unforgiving person begged him to forgive him which showed a sincere plea for forgiveness, but this hard hearted man had him taken away. Should God forgive someone who does not forgive others? This my friends is the moral thinking of people who write such OPs. They believe that evil should go unpunished and accuse God for punishing sin and evil.....Moral Anarchists.

Please do not try to lecture people about morals. You do what you are told apparently by someone whose morals you are in no position to fathom.

Any morals you have have been taught to you despite your religious beliefs and you don't look closely at the morals that lie beneath the surface of the ancient religion you are here to disseminate. I doubt whether you'd be in favor of slavery though it is ingrained in the Hebrew bible and accepted as the way of the world in the christian literature. I doubt whether you'd advocate the stoning of children for whatever silly reason given in the Hebrew bible. Do you advocate the sexist values of the societies that produced the bible? I doubt it at least a little.

The morals you have aren't christian per se and have been instilled by your society and your parents' involvement in the society. Perhaps 150 years ago you would have supported slavery and used the bible to support your case. Perhaps 100 years ago you would have argued against women going to universities or getting the vote. Would you with your precursors have actively fought against any scientific development that questioned your dogma? Those developments eventually gave you refrigerators and cars, electricity and computers, space travel, America's political dominance in today's world.

Morality is not a realm of religion.

spin

The bible advocate the stoning of children? When? Are you refering to the cursing of parents? This is not directed towards children but adults. This law was established by God because Israel was a rebellious nation. This was done to try and prevent rebellion against authority. Spin you should know better than that...or maybe you really do not. The bible supports slavery? No it does not. Moses was allowing voluntary slavery and outlawed involuntary slavery....big difference. And what do cars and refrigerators have to do with
opposing science or are you really talking about Evolution. Or the Roman Catholics stand against such endeavers? America's political dominence in the world? Oh you mean like encouraging debt in third world countries and outright warefare against weaker nations? So then this dominence is of the morality of a non-christian origen nice spinny....nice. :wave:

sugarhitman · 02-09-2008, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reniaa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

I think so too. Sad to see something turned inside out like that.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

I agree they are twisting parables and how can they throw stones on torture consider the following from current news....

Quote:

U.N. says waterboarding should be prosecuted as torture
Fri Feb 8, 2008 11:05 PM GMT
(Reuters) - The controversial interrogation technique known as waterboarding and used by the United States qualifies as torture, the U.N. human rights chief said on Friday.

"I would have no problems with describing this practice as falling under the prohibition of torture," the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights, Louise Arbour, told a news conference in Mexico City.

Arbour made her comment in response to a question about whether U.S. officials could be tried for the use of waterboarding that referred to CIA director Michael Hayden telling Congress on Tuesday his agency had used waterboarding on three detainees captured after the September 11 attacks.

Violators of the U.N. Convention against Torture should be prosecuted under the principle of 'universal jurisdiction' which allows countries to try accused war criminals from other nations, Arbour said.

"There are several precedents worldwide of states exercising their universal jurisdiction ... to enforce the torture convention and we can only hope that we will see more and more of these avenues of redress," Arbour said.

The U.S. Congress is considering banning the practice, in which prisoners are immobilized and water is poured into their breathing passages to simulate drowning

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/arti...TORTURE-UN.xml

Waterboarding is not the worse that they are commiting. They are even sneaking prisoners off into Egypt where according to what ive read torture is not outlawed. This is a government that has no respect for human life. Critics try and put all this on a christian government but there is no christian government. A Christian goverment will not kick christianity out of public institutions and make preaching against homosexuality a hate crime. These people (some of them) put on their christian garments to get votes from the christian community (whether they are apostates or not) then betray them when in office. The U.S. government is an Atheist one....and corrupt to its very core. Soviet Union was a viscious anti-God goverment that killed millions of its own people....when the fear of God is not in man....watch out. :wave:

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02-09-2008, 07:00 AM	#12
sugarhitman Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: georgia Posts: 2,726	The point of this parable is that if you will not forgive others their trespasses against you then how can you expect God to forgive you of your trespasses against Him? That makes a lot of sense. An unforgiving person is a hard hearted, cold individual. Look at the story the man who owed the unforgiving person begged him to forgive him which showed a sincere plea for forgiveness, but this hard hearted man had him taken away. Should God forgive someone who does not forgive others? This my friends is the moral thinking of people who write such OPs. They believe that evil should go unpunished and accuse God for punishing sin and evil.....Moral Anarchists.

02-09-2008, 07:55 AM	#16
silentkiller Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Brooklyn, New York Posts: 18	I don't see a problem with this parable. The king was owed a large sum of money and he forgave his servant, and the servant was owed a small sum of money by another servant and he dealt harshly with the servant who owed him the small sum. Is it not the king's right by his authority to have the man who owed him the large amount of money punished for his transgression toward his fellow servant?

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