Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Phlox Pyros · 03-23-2006, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian

You seem to know some good sites for such stuff, know where we might find E (07)?

Google is GRRREAT!

Unfortunately, I do not believe it is online, though I'd love to be proven wrong!

Phlox Pyros · 03-23-2006, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian

Is that just the scribe hitting the end of the column and, being a ninny, he just puts in some sort of squiggle? Or is that some allowable scribal symbol I don't know about?

I honestly have no idea. I suspect the former, but it could be a symbol of some sort with which I am unfamiliar. I believe there is a book on scribal habits for Codex Alexandrinus (if I'm not thinking of Sinaiticus or Vaticanus). Does anyone have access to a library that might have this book and could check and see if there is anything describing this?

Phlox Pyros · 03-23-2006, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buster Daily

I assume this is, "Jesus Christ Son of God."

Yes, it is. The horizontal bars on top of the pairs of letters helps set each nomen sacrum off from one another.

Julian · 03-23-2006, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buster Daily

Awesome. I would've been boned without those. Deciphering hand-written, all-caps, no-spaces, abbreviated Greek is fun. I assume this is, "Jesus Christ Son of God."

Your assumption is indeed correct. It is worth noting that the ΥΙΟΥ ΤΟΥ ΘΕΟΥ is a disputed fragment, i.e. it does not appear in some ancient exemplars. I am too lazy to go and get my Swanson right at this particular moment and find out which but in a little while when I have to go and get another beer ( I love posting from home

) I will bring and post.

Nice image work, by the way.

Julian

Julian · 03-23-2006, 07:19 PM

I know there is a website out there that has a long list of various scribal shorthand notations but I cannot for the life of me think of what to search for.

Julian

Phlox Pyros · 03-23-2006, 07:54 PM

This is a clip from the second column of the first page of Mark. It shows an entry which corresponds to the Eusebian Canons (please read this link...all of it...well, for a good understanding) written vertically on the left side of the image (the entry is sandwiched between a horizontal line on top and a sign on bottom, mentioned in the Intros, which looks approximately like half of a fancy percent sign). I chose this one because it was one of the more clear entries, ι/β (ie. iota over beta). It corresponds to the beginning of the line which starts immediately after the space at the top of the image to the right of the middle: και ειπεν...

Note that the first letter on the line following the beginning of one of these Eusebian sections is capitalized (this sometimes happens even if a letter is in the middle of a word!). In this particular case, it is the ο omikron that is enlarged before the nomen sacrum ιη for ιησους (ie. Jesus).

Back to the Eusebian Canon entry. The upper Greek letter ι corresponds to the number 10 (learn the Greek numbering system - beware some extra letters/numbers you may not have encountered before (eg. digamma ϝ´and stigma ϛ´ or στ´) - see Wiki Greek Numerals). Greek numerals are most often distinguished from regular letters by a "tick" mark or a horizontal bar over the top of the number.

So, the lower Greek letter β corresponds to the number 2. Therefore, we have the Eusebian reference 10/2, or entry 10 in canon/table 2. Got that?!

If you understand what you just read, then here is a list of the actual Eusebian Canons. So, look for Canon 2 (remember it is the bottom number) and then search that column for the number 10 under Mark (since that is the book at which we are currently looking). If I remember right, this should give you references to parallels in Matt. 21 and Luke 32 (remember that these are not modern chapter or verse references). You will have to convert these numbers back into the Greek Eusebian Canon references and look for them in the other books to find the parallels. Someone want to attempt this? It ain't gonna be easy...at least not until you get used to it!

I've never actually tried them out before, just never been very interested in trying, but perhaps this would be a great time to do it, though probably not for me tonight. Feel free to take a crack at it if you like. You guys seem to know as much as I do about this stuff!

By the way, if you have a NA27, you will find the Eusebian Canons listed therein. And the critical text lists them in the inner margins, so you might attempt that first, for practice, since the numbers are not in Greek.

Also, if you have Swanson's GNT of Mark, turn to page 17 and look at footnote D at the bottom of the page. Follow across until you find a bolded 17 (i.e. modern verse 17) and immediately after it you will see the reference we have been looking at in this post, the ι/β, and immediately after that you see aleph and then A (for Alexandrinus). Thus, we are at modern verse 17. This D footnote helps you locate the Eusebian Canons in the various manuscripts. The C footnote above it helps you locate kephalaia and titloi. Footnote A helps you find the nomina sacra. And, footnote A records variant spellings and errors not cited in the main text at the top. And much, much more! So much information in Swanson's GNT! I LOVE IT!

Anyone finding this stuff interesting and worth the time?

Phlox Pyros · 03-23-2006, 08:08 PM

The New Advent website on Codex Alexandrinus (an interesting read), mentions the following interesting tidbits about the Eusebian Canons among other things.

Quote:

The codex is the first to contain the major chapters with their titles, the Ammonian Sections and the Eusebian Canons complete (Scrivener). A new paragraph is indicated by a large capital and frequently by spacing, not by beginning a new line; the enlarged capital is placed in the margin of the next line, though, curiously, it may not correspond to the beginning of the paragraph or even of a word.
----------------------------------------
The handwriting is generally judged to belong to the beginning or middle of the fifth century or possibly to the late fourth. An Arabic note states that it was written by Thecla the martyr; and Cyril Lucar the Patriarch adds in his note that tradition says she was a noble Egyptian woman and wrote the codex shortly after the Nicene Council. But nothing is known of such a martyr at that date, and the value of this testimony is weakened by the presence of the Eusebian Canons (d. 340) and destroyed by the insertion of the letter of Athanasius (d. 373). On the other hand, the absence of the Euthalian divisions is regarded by Scrivener as proof that it can hardly be later than 450.

Phlox Pyros · 03-23-2006, 08:09 PM

Wow! I may have to save this thread off after time. It is already building up quite a library of links and helpful information for examining uncial manuscripts!

Julian · 03-23-2006, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phlox Pyros

Back to the Eusebian Canon entry. The upper Greek letter ι corresponds to the number 10 (learn the Greek numbering system - beware some extra letters/numbers you may not have encountered before (eg. digamma ϝ´and stigma ϛ´ or στ´) - see Wiki Greek Numerals). Greek numerals are most often distinguished from regular letters by a "tick" mark or a horizontal bar over the top of the number.

Thank you. I wasn't dealing with the digamma and I couldn't work it out.

Quote:

So, the lower Greek letter β corresponds to the number 2. Therefore, we have the Eusebian reference 10/2, or entry 10 in canon/table 2. Got that?!

Yeah, I got that bit.

Quote:

If you understand what you just read, then here is a list of the actual Eusebian Canons. So, look for Canon 2 (remember it is the bottom number) and then search that column for the number 10 under Mark (since that is the book at which we are currently looking). If I remember right, this should give you references to parallels in Matt. 21 and Luke 32 (remember that these are not modern chapter or verse references). You will have to convert these numbers back into the Greek Eusebian Canon references and look for them in the other books to find the parallels. Someone want to attempt this? It ain't gonna be easy...at least not until you get used to it!

Is that the only Eusebian Canons table on the web? It sucks. I searched but couldn't find one other than that. Where did he get it from? Everybody talks about it but no one is showing the actual table. At this rate I may have to create website with all this stuff on it, like the nomina sacra, the eusebian canons, etc.

I got to the Matt. 21 and Luke 32 part. However, isn't the only way to find the bits to actually look through the pages to find the appropriate sections? And wouldn't Matthew be the only one that is in order?

Quote:

I've never actually tried them out before, just never been very interested in trying, but perhaps this would be a great time to do it, though probably not for me tonight. Feel free to take a crack at it if you like. You guys seem to know as much as I do about this stuff!

Actually, no. You have been a great help so far. Thanks a lot.

Quote:

Anyone finding this stuff interesting and worth the time?

Extremely much so. This is something I should have done a long time ago and never quite got around to. I feel much smarter already. :thumbs:

Julian

Phlox Pyros · 03-23-2006, 08:29 PM

Thanks Julian. I hope others, like Buster, are also finding it interesting. I'm trying to provide information at as basic a level as I can for those new to it all. Anyone let me know if there is anything that can be clarified to help. This is for learning and is totally informal. Feel free to ask questions.

By the way, Julian, I added just a hair more information in the post you referenced, so you might want to look it over again for some things you might have missed. I'll try to just post separate posts if I miss something. That will reduce the things that people may miss by cross-posting, I suppose.

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03-23-2006, 07:19 PM	#15
Julian Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Washington, DC (formerly Denmark) Posts: 3,789	I know there is a website out there that has a long list of various scribal shorthand notations but I cannot for the life of me think of what to search for. Julian

03-23-2006, 07:54 PM	#16
Phlox Pyros Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: 7th Heaven Posts: 406	This is a clip from the second column of the first page of Mark. It shows an entry which corresponds to the Eusebian Canons (please read this link...all of it...well, for a good understanding) written vertically on the left side of the image (the entry is sandwiched between a horizontal line on top and a sign on bottom, mentioned in the Intros, which looks approximately like half of a fancy percent sign). I chose this one because it was one of the more clear entries, ι/β (ie. iota over beta). It corresponds to the beginning of the line which starts immediately after the space at the top of the image to the right of the middle: και ειπεν... Note that the first letter on the line following the beginning of one of these Eusebian sections is capitalized (this sometimes happens even if a letter is in the middle of a word!). In this particular case, it is the ο omikron that is enlarged before the nomen sacrum ιη for ιησους (ie. Jesus). Back to the Eusebian Canon entry. The upper Greek letter ι corresponds to the number 10 (learn the Greek numbering system - beware some extra letters/numbers you may not have encountered before (eg. digamma ϝ´and stigma ϛ´ or στ´) - see Wiki Greek Numerals). Greek numerals are most often distinguished from regular letters by a "tick" mark or a horizontal bar over the top of the number. So, the lower Greek letter β corresponds to the number 2. Therefore, we have the Eusebian reference 10/2, or entry 10 in canon/table 2. Got that?! If you understand what you just read, then here is a list of the actual Eusebian Canons. So, look for Canon 2 (remember it is the bottom number) and then search that column for the number 10 under Mark (since that is the book at which we are currently looking). If I remember right, this should give you references to parallels in Matt. 21 and Luke 32 (remember that these are not modern chapter or verse references). You will have to convert these numbers back into the Greek Eusebian Canon references and look for them in the other books to find the parallels. Someone want to attempt this? It ain't gonna be easy...at least not until you get used to it! I've never actually tried them out before, just never been very interested in trying, but perhaps this would be a great time to do it, though probably not for me tonight. Feel free to take a crack at it if you like. You guys seem to know as much as I do about this stuff! By the way, if you have a NA27, you will find the Eusebian Canons listed therein. And the critical text lists them in the inner margins, so you might attempt that first, for practice, since the numbers are not in Greek. Also, if you have Swanson's GNT of Mark, turn to page 17 and look at footnote D at the bottom of the page. Follow across until you find a bolded 17 (i.e. modern verse 17) and immediately after it you will see the reference we have been looking at in this post, the ι/β, and immediately after that you see aleph and then A (for Alexandrinus). Thus, we are at modern verse 17. This D footnote helps you locate the Eusebian Canons in the various manuscripts. The C footnote above it helps you locate kephalaia and titloi. Footnote A helps you find the nomina sacra. And, footnote A records variant spellings and errors not cited in the main text at the top. And much, much more! So much information in Swanson's GNT! I LOVE IT! Anyone finding this stuff interesting and worth the time?

03-23-2006, 08:09 PM	#18
Phlox Pyros Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: 7th Heaven Posts: 406	Wow! I may have to save this thread off after time. It is already building up quite a library of links and helpful information for examining uncial manuscripts!

03-23-2006, 08:29 PM	#20
Phlox Pyros Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: 7th Heaven Posts: 406	Thanks Julian. I hope others, like Buster, are also finding it interesting. I'm trying to provide information at as basic a level as I can for those new to it all. Anyone let me know if there is anything that can be clarified to help. This is for learning and is totally informal. Feel free to ask questions. By the way, Julian, I added just a hair more information in the post you referenced, so you might want to look it over again for some things you might have missed. I'll try to just post separate posts if I miss something. That will reduce the things that people may miss by cross-posting, I suppose.

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