Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 05-24-2012, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Iran’s Basij Press is claiming a purported Gospel of Barnabas, discovered in 2000, will prove that Islam is the final and righteous religion, causing the collapse worldwide of Christianity.

Turkey confiscated the text, written on animal hide, in an anti-smuggling operation. Turkish authorities believe it could be an authentic version of the Gospel of Barnabas by the apostle known for his travels with the apostle Paul.

Basij Press contends the text was written in the 5th or 6th century and predicts the coming of Muhammad and the religion of Islam.

The Christian world, it says, denies the existence of such a gospel.

http://www.wnd.com/2012/05/iran-disc...-christianity/

I have long been interested in the Gospel of Barnabas. I have always contended the original gospel contained a substitution narrative. Let's hope this is legitimate.

stephan huller · 05-24-2012, 11:53 PM

More on the discovery http://www.christianpost.com/news/tu...arnabas-70148/

The book, written in Syriac, a dialect of Aramaic, even predicts the coming of the last Islamic messiah, the report added.

Even more - http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/...25_634x405.jpg

Toto · 05-25-2012, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

....

http://www.wnd.com/2012/05/iran-disc...-christianity/

I have long been interested in the Gospel of Barnabas. I have always contended the original gospel contained a substitution narrative. Let's hope this is legitimate.

They don't call it WingNutDaily for nothing

Quote:

Erick Stakelbeck, host of the Christian Broadcasting Network’s “Stakelbeck on Terror” show and a close observer of Iranian affairs, said Iran is highlighting the book because it sees Christianity as a threat.

The Vatican scoffs

stephan huller · 05-25-2012, 01:13 AM

As someone interested in the Marcionite tradition, the idea that the awaited Paraclete was a messianic figure rather than a special wind, is certainly the original understanding. That's what I am interested in. Forget Paraclete = Mohammed (which is still a more plausible etymological explanation than 'Holy Spirit')

stephan huller · 05-25-2012, 01:16 AM

The cultural ministry of Turkey has reported finding a 1,500-year-old document, possibly written in Aramaic, which may be the apocryphal “Gospel of Barnabas.” Turkish authorities say that the document was seized from smugglers in 2000. It will need repairs before it can be exhibited, they said.

Apparently the 'Gospel of Barnabas' connection was floated before the Iranian propaganda ministry got a hold of the story. Did I ever tell you when I was in Kenya in Mombasa (on the coast) where everyone 'knew' that the Gospel taught that Judas was crucified in Jesus's place?

stephan huller · 05-25-2012, 01:41 AM

Here is an interview (in Turkish) with the professor who translated at least part of the text

http://tvarsivi.com/player.php?i=2012020848801

stephan huller · 05-25-2012, 01:48 AM

Skeptics have already stated that the authenticity and claims surrounding the artifact are suspicious: first, the dating of the object; second, rumors that it contains the so-called Barnibas Bible, a known forgery from the 15th century. Expert Syriac analysis of the visible contents that have been displayed reveal the following:

[dn]trwn klm’ dpqdt[kwn]… ‘n’ ‘mkwn ‘n’ kl[hwn] [yw]mt’ ‘dm’ lšwlm[h]

“that they should keep all that I have commanded [you] I am with you all [da]ys until the end [of]“

The contents appear to be from the standard Syriac Peshitta (the Syriac language Bible) and the verse from the gospel according to Matthew rather than anything different. However, also visible is what is believed to be text written in pointed Nestorian script, another clue pertaining to its age and authenticity, that says the following:

bšnt’ ‘lp’ whmšm’ dmrn
“in the year 1,500 of our Lord“
If this is in fact the case, then it is highly likely that this artifact is not as old as has been claimed, by a discrepency of at least 1000 to 1500

An ancient aramaic bible with eerily similar features discovered in Turkish occupied Northern Cyprus was proven to be a fake.
years. Furthermore, it increases the likelihood that this artifact could be a fake. It is puzzling, for example, that if Matthew (28:19-20) appears on the displayed page that the page to the right appears blank and that the spacing of the text would allow the entirety of Matthew to appear in the preceding pages. There is certainly no way this manuscript has enough pages to contain the four gospels or the whole of Matthew. Moreover, it’s odd that all the writing is grouped on the right hand side of the page. These are features which would raise suspicions that it is a modern forgery rather than an ancient relic. Ancient scribes would normally utilize the space much more efficiently given the scarcity and cost of the materials to record the holy gospel. The claim that it could be the so-called Barnabas Bible, a known forgery, makes it even more suspect.

steve_bnk · 05-25-2012, 01:54 AM

There are ony four gosples, and they are in the bible.....nothing changes.

mountainman · 05-25-2012, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

Iran’s Basij Press is claiming a purported Gospel of Barnabas, discovered in 2000, will prove that Islam is the final and righteous religion, causing the collapse worldwide of Christianity.

Turkey confiscated the text, written on animal hide, in an anti-smuggling operation. Turkish authorities believe it could be an authentic version of the Gospel of Barnabas by the apostle known for his travels with the apostle Paul.

Basij Press contends the text was written in the 5th or 6th century and predicts the coming of Muhammad and the religion of Islam.

The Christian world, it says, denies the existence of such a gospel.

http://www.wnd.com/2012/05/iran-disc...-christianity/

I have long been interested in the Gospel of Barnabas. I have always contended the original gospel contained a substitution narrative. Let's hope this is legitimate.

Cool news.

The Christian world does not deny the existence of the gospel, since it has been attested in various ancient sources. Here are my notes on the Gospel of Barnabas.

Quote:

Mediaeval Forgery? 5th or 15th? ? Very late or early?

A "Gospel according to Barnabas" is mentioned in two early Christian lists of apocryphal works: the Latin Decretum Gelasianum[2] (6th century), as well as a 7th-century Greek List of the Sixty Books. ? 18th century? 6th?

Text | [Wiki] | [Google] The present text advertises Muhammad. It also describes that Judas was crucified instead of Jesus. In this sense, it presents a docetic Jesus, who was not physically present.

Extract:

‘Judas came near to the people with whom Jesus was; and when he heard the noise, he entered into the house where the disciples slept. And God, seeing the fear and danger of his servant, ordered Gabriel and Michael and Rafael and Azrael to carry him out of the world. And they came in all haste, and bare him out of the window which looks towards the south. And they placed him in the third heaven, where he will remain, blessing God, in the company of angels, till near the end of the world.’ (chapter 216) ‘And Judas the traitor entered before the rest into the place from which Jesus had just been taken up. And the disciples were sleeping. And the wonderful God acted wonderfully, changing Judas into the same figure and speech with Jesus. We, believing that it was he, said to him, “Master, whom seekest thou?” And he said to them, smiling, “Ye have forgotten yourselves, since ye do not know Judas Iscariot.” At this time the soldiery entered; and seeing Judas so like in every respect to Jesus, laid hands upon him….’(Chapter 217) ‘...They carried him to Mount Calvary, where they executed criminals, and crucified him, stripping him naked for the greater ignominy. Then he did nothing but cry out: “O my God, why hast thou forsaken me that I should die unjustly, when the real malefactor hath escaped? (chapter 219)

Roger Pearse · 05-25-2012, 09:27 AM

There have been repeated attempts by fakers in Turkey to sell "ancient" bibles written in Syriac in gold letters. One of these people even approached me directly.

This is another of their efforts, as the photo shows. The manuscript is not ancient, I read (where? can't remember), and is certainly not Barnabas, but rather an ordinary copy of Matthew.

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05-24-2012, 11:53 PM	#2
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	More on the discovery http://www.christianpost.com/news/tu...arnabas-70148/ The book, written in Syriac, a dialect of Aramaic, even predicts the coming of the last Islamic messiah, the report added. Even more - http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/...25_634x405.jpg

05-25-2012, 01:13 AM	#4
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	As someone interested in the Marcionite tradition, the idea that the awaited Paraclete was a messianic figure rather than a special wind, is certainly the original understanding. That's what I am interested in. Forget Paraclete = Mohammed (which is still a more plausible etymological explanation than 'Holy Spirit')

05-25-2012, 01:16 AM	#5
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The cultural ministry of Turkey has reported finding a 1,500-year-old document, possibly written in Aramaic, which may be the apocryphal “Gospel of Barnabas.” Turkish authorities say that the document was seized from smugglers in 2000. It will need repairs before it can be exhibited, they said. Apparently the 'Gospel of Barnabas' connection was floated before the Iranian propaganda ministry got a hold of the story. Did I ever tell you when I was in Kenya in Mombasa (on the coast) where everyone 'knew' that the Gospel taught that Judas was crucified in Jesus's place?

05-25-2012, 01:41 AM	#6
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Here is an interview (in Turkish) with the professor who translated at least part of the text http://tvarsivi.com/player.php?i=2012020848801

05-25-2012, 01:48 AM	#7
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Skeptics have already stated that the authenticity and claims surrounding the artifact are suspicious: first, the dating of the object; second, rumors that it contains the so-called Barnibas Bible, a known forgery from the 15th century. Expert Syriac analysis of the visible contents that have been displayed reveal the following: [dn]trwn klm’ dpqdt[kwn]… ‘n’ ‘mkwn ‘n’ kl[hwn] [yw]mt’ ‘dm’ lšwlm[h] “that they should keep all that I have commanded [you] I am with you all [da]ys until the end [of]“ The contents appear to be from the standard Syriac Peshitta (the Syriac language Bible) and the verse from the gospel according to Matthew rather than anything different. However, also visible is what is believed to be text written in pointed Nestorian script, another clue pertaining to its age and authenticity, that says the following: bšnt’ ‘lp’ whmšm’ dmrn “in the year 1,500 of our Lord“ If this is in fact the case, then it is highly likely that this artifact is not as old as has been claimed, by a discrepency of at least 1000 to 1500 An ancient aramaic bible with eerily similar features discovered in Turkish occupied Northern Cyprus was proven to be a fake. years. Furthermore, it increases the likelihood that this artifact could be a fake. It is puzzling, for example, that if Matthew (28:19-20) appears on the displayed page that the page to the right appears blank and that the spacing of the text would allow the entirety of Matthew to appear in the preceding pages. There is certainly no way this manuscript has enough pages to contain the four gospels or the whole of Matthew. Moreover, it’s odd that all the writing is grouped on the right hand side of the page. These are features which would raise suspicions that it is a modern forgery rather than an ancient relic. Ancient scribes would normally utilize the space much more efficiently given the scarcity and cost of the materials to record the holy gospel. The claim that it could be the so-called Barnabas Bible, a known forgery, makes it even more suspect.

05-25-2012, 01:54 AM	#8
steve_bnk Contributor Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,602	There are ony four gosples, and they are in the bible.....nothing changes.

05-25-2012, 09:27 AM	#10
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	There have been repeated attempts by fakers in Turkey to sell "ancient" bibles written in Syriac in gold letters. One of these people even approached me directly. This is another of their efforts, as the photo shows. The manuscript is not ancient, I read (where? can't remember), and is certainly not Barnabas, but rather an ordinary copy of Matthew.

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