spin

This is not the issue I was talking about. I expressly said that Paul believed in a real Jesus.

Please forget about arguing against mythicism with me.

I personally do not support mythicism. You may remember. Mythicism will only confuse you about dealing with the relevant issues.

It has nothing to do with the question you were asked.

Obviously, you have no problem with the fact that Paul expressly doesn't say the brother of Jesus Christ, which is Paul's normal means of referring to Jesus. You don't know what "James the brother of the lord" refers to and Paul's expression should shake you from assuming it means Jesus. It is simply anachronistic to think that it must be something derived from later literature.

The mention of Peter in Galatians has long been disputed. Ehrman doesn't think it's kosher. For good reason, Paul is referring to someone called Cephas and suddenly Gal 2:7-8 gives a statement about Petrine supremacy and Peter's commission to the Jews which is immediately contradicted by the three pillars' commission to the Jews. Sorry, but you need to actively engage with your sources.

What you are doing is projecting your own narrative onto what Paul has written. What you've said has nothing to sdo with Paul, but with your understanding of later literature and your projection of that later literature onto Paul. You are ignoring Paul for your own commitments.

I specifically asked you:

If you only had the seven undisputed Pauline letters (the earliest literature), could you still persist in your support for a HJ? ie with no gospels to cloud your judgment, could you conjure up a HJ?

This excludes your access to the gospels for the question asked of you. All you've done is given me your gospel tinged analysis again, which is a refusal to answer the question.

So, let me ask you again:

If you only had the seven undisputed Pauline letters (the earliest literature), could you still persist in your support for a HJ? ie with no gospels to cloud your judgment, could you conjure up a HJ?

spin

ApostateAbe

spin, I am sorry I was upsetting. I was up late last night, and wasn't all that cognizant. The answer is yes, if I only had the seven undisputed Pauline letters, I could still persist in my support for a HJ, but the case wouldn't be nearly as strong. I would have a hard time figuring out what Paul was even talking about. Paul wrote his letters to people who already knew what he was talking about.

spin

You weren't. You were threatening to be terminally sidetracked.

His proselytes. Hopefully they remembered basically what he had told them: they did after all become believers in the religion he spread -- without needing a historical Jesus. It was sufficient that Paul, who had never met a Jesus, was convincing. (If you really want you could argue that Paul wasn't correct when he said that he didn't get his gospel from other people [Gal 1:11-12], but then all you would be doing is shifting the discussion further into the unknown without resolving anything.)

In Galatians Paul talks about another gospel, ie the message of some other religious position, a gospel which he doesn't clarify, which needs to be some form of Jewish proselytism, such as what Acts would later tell us about Apollos, who taught the baptism of John until he was apparently set straight. Any messianism from any Jewish proselytizers would be seen by Paul as the opposition. (We've seen Johanine proselytizing, but see Mt 23:15 for Pharisee proselytizing.)


spin

DCHindley

Because the tidbits about Christ are interwoven into statements that seem to have little or nothing to do with him, thus confusing the hell out of interpretation, I think one has to ignore the context from where one finds the tidbits about Christ, and piece it together from fragments like this:

ROMANS CHAPTER 1

1b a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the good news of God 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3 the good news concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and designated Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations, 6 including yourselves who are called to belong to Jesus Christ; 7a To all God's beloved in Rome, who are called to be saints 7c from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ 8c through Jesus Christ 9b of his Son 13b as among the rest of the Nations 15 so I am eager to preach the good news to you also who are in Rome.

CHAPTER 2

16b by Christ Jesus

CHAPTER 3

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, 22a the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. 24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25a whom 25c as an expiation by his blood 26a in Jesus

CHAPTER 4

23 But the words, "it was reckoned to him," were written not for [Abraham's] sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be reckoned to us who believe in him [God] that raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification

CHAPTER 5

5:1b through our Lord Jesus Christ 6 While we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the unGodly. 7 Why, one will hardly die for a righteous man--though perhaps for a good man one will dare even to die 8b Christ died for us, 9a therefore, we are now much more justified by his blood, and 9c by him 10b by the death of his Son 10d by his life 11b through our Lord Jesus Christ 12 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned-- 14b who was a type of the one who was to come. 15a But the free gift is not like the trespass 15c in the grace of that one man Jesus Christ 17 If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. 18 Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous 21b through Jesus Christ our Lord

CHAPTER 6

3b into Christ Jesus 3d his 4b with him 4d as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father. We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin 8b with Christ 8d with him 9b Christ being raised from the dead will never die again 11b in Christ Jesus 23b in Christ Jesus our Lord

CHAPTER 7

4b through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead 25b through Jesus Christ our Lord!

CHAPTER 8

1b for those who are in Christ Jesus 2b in Christ Jesus 3b [God] sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin 7a For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of [God] who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, "Abba! Father!" 16 it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him 23 and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 29 For those whom [God] foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, will he not also give us all things with him? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies; 34 who is to condemn? Is it Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us? 35b (the love) of Christ 39b in Christ Jesus our Lord

CHAPTER 9

1b in Christ 3b from Christ 5b and of their [Jewish] race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is over all, blessed by God for ever, Amen

CHAPTER 10

4 For Christ is the end of the law, that every one who has faith may be justified 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, Do not say in your heart, "Who will ascend into heaven?" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 or "Who will descend into the abyss?" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead) 8 But what does it say? The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart (that is, the word of faith which we preach); Dt 30: 12- 14) 9 because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved 12b the same (one) is Lord of all and bestows his riches upon all who call upon him 17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.

CHAPTER 12

5b in Christ

CHAPTER 13

14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires

CHAPTER 14

8 If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord; so then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living 14b Jesus 15b Do not let what you eat cause the ruin of one for whom Christ died 18b Christ

CHAPTER 15

3 For Christ did not please himself; but, as it is written, "The reproaches of those who reproached thee fell on me." (Ps 69:9) 4 For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that by steadfastness and by the encouragement of the scriptures we might have hope 5b in accord with Christ Jesus 6b and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ 7b as Christ has welcomed you 8a For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God's truthfulness 12 and further Isaiah says, "The root of Jesse shall come, he who rises to rule the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles hope" (Is 11: 10) 16b of Christ Jesus 17a In Christ Jesus 18b (through) Christ 19b of Christ 20b Christ 29b of Christ 30b by our Lord Jesus Christ

CHAPTER 16

3b in Christ Jesus 5b for Christ 7b (come before me) in Christ 9b in Christ 10b in Christ 16b of Christ 20c of our Lord Jesus Christ 24 The grace of the our Lord Jesus Christ be with all of you. Amen 25b of Jesus Christ 27a to the only wise God through Jesus Christ

DCH

aa5874

Using the Pauline writer as evidence for an historical Jesus is a major disaster.

1. Paul was supposed to be a contemporary of the HJ.

In all the Pauline writings, there is not a single time that the Pauline writer wrote that he SAW Jesus alive anywhere or was doing anything before Jesus supposedly died.

The Pauline writer only SAW Jesus in a resurrected state and heard from Jesus after he was implausibly raised from the dead after being buried three days before.

And in Acts 9, Saul/Paul was BLINDED when he heard the supposed voice of Jesus.

In the Epistles with the name Paul, the writer claimed he saw James, the Lord's brother in Jerusalem, but this writer missed Jesus in Jerusalem or anywhere in Judaea.


The Pauline writer is the worst candidate as a witness to the historical Jesus.

1.When the supposed Jesus, from heaven, spoke to Saul/Paul, he was BLIND.

2. When Paul saw Jesus, he was already in resurrected state.

The Pauline writings augment the position that Jesus was of a mythical core.

Elena

If you want to know what is going on, start a poll. But please, not only with two entries. There is a lot of people who think that there is not enough evidence to be sure either way. Maybe this poll took place already.

And to say that there is 0% of HJ people here is evidence of your lack of knowledge of this board imho.

Elena

If you think one historical Paul makes sense then just simply provide the sources of antiquity external of the Church that can show that one historical Paul makes sense.

Source = zero?

Elena

Would not it be more embarrassing for the christians to have an historical Jesus who was a criminal executed with his two accomplices?

Which were the criminal motives to be put on the cross by the Romans?

Toto

Please, no more polls. Just search the archives.

Thanks.

aa5874

Paul who? I cannot really say who wrote the Pauline Epistles, but as found canonised, they are filled with fiction or mythology.

The Pauline writers only make historical sense when their dates of writing and autorship can be confirmed.

A Pauline writer claimed he met apostles of Jesus, and that Jesus was betrayed in the night, but Jesus and the apostles were ALL fictitious characters.