Freethought & Rationalism Archive

reddhedd · 12-22-2005, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boro Nut

All this talk makes me really mad. A long time ago, a single beautiful human being put his very life on the line for each and every one of us. How quickly we forget. With no thought for his own safety or wellbeing, and in full knowledge of what dreadful danger he faced, he so loved the little children of the world that he gladly clambered down my chimney with a ten speed racing bike. Will no one make a stand for him?

Boro Nut

:crying: I am humbled, and chastened by your unapologetic plea for the man without whom christmas would not be the same!

That was beautiful, Boro Nut. Way to stand up for your convictions! :jump:

Redd

pharoah · 12-22-2005, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orthodox_Freethinker

Yes, that is true. Even if it was not common to do so during the winter months, we have no way of disproving that they none the less were outside.
What I suggested is that they may have been outside to watch their flocks because they intuitively expected something important to happen.

SHEPHARD #1 - I got a feeling that something BIG is gonna happen tonight. Wanna go outside to watch?

SHEPHARD #2 - Sure why not? But what about the sheep we've got safely coralled in here? Whos going to watch them while we're stargazing?

SHEPHARD #1 - Why not take them with us? This is something they ought to see as well.

SHEPHARD #2 - Are you shitting me? It's cold as hell and raining outside. No way that all the sheep would survive that. Master would be real pissed. We'd be lucky just to end up in prison.

SHEPHARD #1 - ______ _____________ _________________ _________ ___

Help me out there OrthoFree and fill in the blanks for me.

Chili · 12-22-2005, 01:41 PM

Shepherd #1) You guys don't get it. If we all vacate the place we might just see what was foretold.

Notice that the shepherds never entered the stable again but only looked in and admired to see what was foretold. In case you wonder, to enter the stable again is to have sin return and that is a very protestant thing to do. Perhaps, that is why you are mixed up on this.

You might want to read Pasternak on this in Zhivago but it requires you to enter his steam of consciousness to detect this. A good beginning would be his "Christmas Star."

Oh wait, let me add that it meant retirement for them as shepherd. Permament, with pay, and a divine bonus to boot.

noah · 12-23-2005, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orthodox_Freethinker
The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is a necessary deduction from the words of Scripture.

It is only necessary because your mainstream Christian beliefs would collapse without it. The Trinity and its conceptual origins are a classic example of drawing a circle and trying to make a square fit through it. It's the same as saying "Oh my god! 2+2=4 but we have to make it equal 5 or we're in serious trouble". Scripture does not and did not support the concept of the unholy Trinity and the new Christian power brokers of the time of the Trinity's doctrinal origins knew it. However, they saw their establishment threatened by Arianism and other polytheistic beliefs and decided to get together at Nicea and pound out a standardized monotheistic version of Christian theology in response. The problem for these Christian "theologians" is that the bible was there before they were. Therefore they were stuck with the impossible task of trying to make a horse look and sound like a duck which is excactly what trying to apply the doctrine of the Trinity to the bible is. Ultimately, they had the power and they won. But that doesn't mean the doctrine of the Trinity is scriptural or biblical or Christian. It certainly isn't logical. As Ingersoll or someone just as intellgent once said, it's a good thing you don't have to understand it to believe it.
Scripture does not support the doctrine of the Trinity. It does not state that there is a god composed of three beings. That belief is the creeds of men, the uninspired creeds of men. Since when is it Christian to put your faith in uninspired dogma and creeds? No one at Nicea has ever been held to be inspired. Only the Bible is the inspired word of god, not Constantine, a neophyte and his band of uninspired Bishops.

Quote:

Given that there is one God and yet three divine persons, it logically follows that they co-exist in the same divine being.

Nowhere does scripture say this. It is the creed of men. Scripture says that The Father is greater. (John 14:28) The Son is *taught* (John 8:28).
One of the things he learned was *obedience* (Heb. 5:8)
What could Almighty God ever *learn*??? To whom would Almighty God be *obedient*???
Jesus *prayed* to God. (Matt. 14:23)

Oh and who is the same divine being in which JC, God and the Holy Spirit reside? Is there some Uberdeity you haven't told us about?

Quote:

Any other conclusion would deny either the deity of Christ or the oneness of God.

No it wouldn't. It's quite possible that JC is a lesser divinity or deity and so is the holy ghost and that God or Jehovah or Yahweh or whatever you call him or it or her, is the arch-deity. Each, including God, could be one. It sure would be a more logical proposition than this three peas in a pod Trinity idea.

Vorkosigan · 12-23-2005, 04:54 AM

Quote:

How could the Father and the Son be co-eternal without being the same God?

Easily, if one is the father and the other a divine mediator figure, which were known in Judaism of this era.

Vorkosigan

jgibson000 · 12-27-2005, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wads4

This reminds me of how to calculate the date of Earth's creation to 4004 BC by counting "Begats"

Why "supposedly"?-- The birth of Mithras was on december 25th, and was a much older established date. Hisory has subsequently shown that Christians adopte, plagiarise and generally take over other peoples dates and festivals in order to neutralise and christianise them.

Could you please supply a primary source which documents your claim that Mithras was long known in antiquity to have been born on Dec 25th?

Yours,

Jeffrey Gibson

Kosh · 12-27-2005, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgibson000

Could you please supply a primary source which documents your claim that Mithras was long known in antiquity to have been born on Dec 25th?

Yours,

Jeffrey Gibson

Not primary, but maybe this will help:

Mithra info

jgibson000 · 12-27-2005, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kosh

Not primary, but maybe this will help:

Mithra info

Actually, it doesn't -- and not only because the URL doesn't work, but because the author of the page you intended to send me is, among other things, a creationist and someone who has no facility in (or, apparently, first hand aquaintance with) ancient sources.

Jeffrey Gibson

Dharma · 12-27-2005, 04:21 PM

Yup, the myth of Christ was taken from the Persian religion of the virgin Anahita and her son "Mithra" whose birth is celebrated at the winter solstice in Persia.

Quote:

Mithra in the Persian World
Antiochus and Mithra, with radiate phrygian cap, bas-relief of the temple built by Antiochus I of Commagene, 69-31 BC, on the Nemrood Dagh, in the Taurus Mountains.
Enlarge
Antiochus and Mithra, with radiate phrygian cap, bas-relief of the temple built by Antiochus I of Commagene, 69-31 BC, on the Nemrood Dagh, in the Taurus Mountains.

The reform of Zarathushtra (Zoroaster) retained the multitudes of Persian deities, reducing them, in a complex hierarchy, to "Immortals" and "Adored Ones" who were now conceived either under the rule of Ahura Mazda or of Ahriman, as all of the cosmos was now part of Good or part of Evil.

In the later parts of the Avesta, Mithra comes to the fore among the created beings. He gained the title of "Judge of Souls". As the protector of truth and the enemy of error, Mithra occupied an intermediate position in the Zoroastrian pantheon as the greatest of the yazatas, the beings created by Ahura Mazda to aid in the destruction of evil and the administration of the world. He became the divine representative of Ahura-Mazda on earth, and was directed to protect the righteous from the demonic forces of Ahriman. He was thus a deity of truth and loyalty, and, by transfer to the physical realm, a god of air and light. As the enemy of darkness and evil spirits, he protected souls, a psychopomp accompanying them to paradise. Because light is accompanied by heat, he was the god of vegetation and increase; he rewarded the good with prosperity and annihilated the bad. Mithras was called omniscient, undeceivable, infallible, eternally watchful, and never-resting.

era, Mithra was identified as the son of Anahita, a goddess with extensive parallels to Near Eastern mother-deities who is not mentioned in the early Avesta. The largest temple with a Mithraic connection is the Seleucid temple at Kangavar in western Iran (c. 200 BC), which is dedicated to "Anahita, the Immaculate Virgin Mother of the Lord Mithras".

The birth of Mithra is celebrated at the eve of the winter solstice, called Shab-e Yalda in Persian, as befits a god of light.

As a god who gave victory, Mithra was prominent in the official cult of the first Persian empire, Achaemenid dynasty, where the seventh month and the sixteenth day of other months were consecrated to him. Mithra, the "Great King" was especially suited as a tutelary god for a ruler: Royal names incorporating the god's name (e.g. "Mithradates") appear in royal names of Parthia, Armenia, and in Anatolia, in Pontus and Cappadocia.

His worship spread first with the empire of the Persians throughout Asia Minor, then throughout the empire of Alexander and his successors. In Mesopotamia, Mithra was easily identified with Shamash, god of the sun and justice.

The Parthian princes of Armenia were hereditary priests of Mithra, and an entire district of this land was dedicated to Anahita. Many temples were erected to Mithra in Armenia, which remained one of the last strongholds of the Zoroastrian cult of Mithra until it became the first officially Christian kingdom.
[edit]

Temples to Mithra in Greater Ancient Persia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitra

Vorkosigan · 12-27-2005, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgibson000

Could you please supply a primary source which documents your claim that Mithras was long known in antiquity to have been born on Dec 25th?

Yours,

Jeffrey Gibson

Hello, Dr. G. Welcome aboard!

Michael Turton

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12-22-2005, 01:41 PM	#93
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	Shepherd #1) You guys don't get it. If we all vacate the place we might just see what was foretold. Notice that the shepherds never entered the stable again but only looked in and admired to see what was foretold. In case you wonder, to enter the stable again is to have sin return and that is a very protestant thing to do. Perhaps, that is why you are mixed up on this. You might want to read Pasternak on this in Zhivago but it requires you to enter his steam of consciousness to detect this. A good beginning would be his "Christmas Star." Oh wait, let me add that it meant retirement for them as shepherd. Permament, with pay, and a divine bonus to boot.

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