Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Gamera · 04-03-2008, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

The way mythicists work is to ignore the details (which are usually vital for the meaning of a particular myth) and to generalize the narrative to the point that it encompasses almost any narrative, but particularly the gospel narrative.

Generalized enough, the Osirus myth can be claimed as the origin of Darwinism and Faulkner's As I Lay Dying. It explains everything, and hence nothing.

JW:
Riiight. The basics of the Jesus story (and they differ just like Osiris) is that Jesus, a Divine, died a human death, and was brought back to life by a god but left the human world. Now let's see, where is the better parallel, Osiris or the Jewish Bible?

Joseph

Jesus. Name. The fleshy part of the trinity.

Thanks for making my point.

Let's see, Osiris was a corn deity, whose fertility role was ultimately subsumed by his role as a god of the underworld. Now according to Plutarch, Osiris fell in love with his paramour Isis, while still in the womb. He grew up and married her, and taught the cannibal populaton of the time to raise grain and give up their cannibalism. He sang a lot of hymns to persuade the barbarous population to get civilized. Then he went off to civilize the world. In his absence Seth, Thoth's son, plotted against him, murdered him, and threw his dead body in the Nile. Osiris used magic to bring him back to life, but too late: he belonged to the underworld.

There are endless variation on these entertaining events.

Now, does this sound like the gospel narrative or some typically vertiginous pagan myth? Where are the cannibals, the love at first uterus, the farming techniques, the body dumping in the river. Oh, for fun!

Clivedurdle · 04-03-2008, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

JW:
Riiight. The basics of the Jesus story (and they differ just like Osiris) is that Jesus, a Divine, died a human death, and was brought back to life by a god but left the human world. Now let's see, where is the better parallel, Osiris or the Jewish Bible?

Joseph

Jesus. Name. The fleshy part of the trinity.

Thanks for making my point.

Let's see, Osiris was a corn deity, whose fertility role was ultimately subsumed by his role as a god of the underworld. Now according to Plutarch, Osiris fell in love with his paramour Isis, while still in the womb. He grew up and married her, and taught the cannibal populaton of the time to raise grain and give up their cannibalism. He sang a lot of hymns to persuade the barbarous population to get civilized. Then he went off to civilize the world. In his absence Seth, Thoth's son, plotted against him, murdered him, and threw his dead body in the Nile. Osiris used magic to bring him back to life, but too late: he belonged to the underworld.

There are endless variation on these entertaining events.

Now, does this sound like the gospel narrative or some typically vertiginous pagan myth? Where are the cannibals, the love at first uterus, the farming techniques, the body dumping in the river. Oh, for fun!

Umm Yes

Quote:

The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; 2As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
6And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;
7And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
8I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
9And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
10And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
11And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
12And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.
13And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.
14Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
16Now as he walked by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew his brother casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.
17And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.
18And straightway they forsook their nets, and followed him.
19And when he had gone a little farther thence, he saw James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, who also were in the ship mending their nets.

It is not a classic myth, it is in many ways a modern one for its time, putting in bits of history and reality - John was in prison for example. A very interesting piece of writing.

Yellum Notnef · 04-03-2008, 02:04 PM

You guys are falling right into Rogers trap and giving him the satisfaction of being right even if it is just a trivial matter that does nothing to show that Jesus is the real deal.

Gamera · 04-03-2008, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

Thanks for making my point.

Let's see, Osiris was a corn deity, whose fertility role was ultimately subsumed by his role as a god of the underworld. Now according to Plutarch, Osiris fell in love with his paramour Isis, while still in the womb. He grew up and married her, and taught the cannibal populaton of the time to raise grain and give up their cannibalism. He sang a lot of hymns to persuade the barbarous population to get civilized. Then he went off to civilize the world. In his absence Seth, Thoth's son, plotted against him, murdered him, and threw his dead body in the Nile. Osiris used magic to bring him back to life, but too late: he belonged to the underworld.

There are endless variation on these entertaining events.

Now, does this sound like the gospel narrative or some typically vertiginous pagan myth? Where are the cannibals, the love at first uterus, the farming techniques, the body dumping in the river. Oh, for fun!

Umm Yes

Quote:

The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; 2As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
6And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;
7And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
8I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
9And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
10And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
11And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
12And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.
13And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.
14Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
16Now as he walked by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew his brother casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.
17And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.
18And straightway they forsook their nets, and followed him.
19And when he had gone a little farther thence, he saw James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, who also were in the ship mending their nets.

It is not a classic myth, it is in many ways a modern one for its time, putting in bits of history and reality - John was in prison for example. A very interesting piece of writing.

So you see baptism as equivalent as being murdered, dumped in a river, and revived by magic (but left to life in the underworld).

Hmmm. Somehow I don't.

JoeWallack · 04-03-2008, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

Osiris[Isis] used magic to bring him back to life, but too late: he belonged to the underworld.

...

Now, does this sound like the gospel narrative

JW:
This reminds me too much of Richard Jeni saying when he played in Texas and did his standard New York schtick inevitably some good ol boy would stand up during his routine and say:

"Ya'll probably just think we're a bunch of stupid red-neck hicks, doncha?".

And Jeni would say, "Now how do you answer that?".

Since you are in denile regarding a comparison of the Basics and are posturing that differences in details are determinative I think it's safe now to switch to Lecture:

Another basic comparison is the key ancient Egyptian belief that the afterlife was obtainable based on the example of Osiris which corresponds to the key Christian belief that the afterlife is obtainable based on the example of EL-osoris, sorry, Jesus.

Joseph

Gamera · 04-03-2008, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenton Mulley

You guys are falling right into Rogers trap and giving him the satisfaction of being right even if it is just a trivial matter that does nothing to show that Jesus is the real deal.

Well, Jesus may not be "the real deal" but if he isn't, he isn't due to Osiris, whose myth is so profoundly different from the gospel narrative that it takes a vast amount of intellectual massaging to make it even begin to fit, after which the Osiris myth basically "explains" every narrative you care to point to.

Gamera · 04-03-2008, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

Osiris[Isis] used magic to bring him back to life, but too late: he belonged to the underworld.

...

Now, does this sound like the gospel narrative

JW:
This reminds me too much of Richard Jeni saying when he played in Texas and did his standard New York schtick inevitably some good ol boy would stand up during his routine and say:

"Ya'll probably just think we're a bunch of stupid red-neck hicks, doncha?".

And Jeni would say, "Now how do you answer that?".

Since you are in denile regarding a comparison of the Basics and are posturing that differences in details are determinative I think it's safe now to switch to Lecture:

Another basic comparison is the key ancient Egyptian belief that the afterlife was obtainable based on the example of Osiris which corresponds to the key Christian belief that the afterlife is obtainable based on the example of EL-osoris, sorry, Jesus.

Joseph

Pattern recognition is a powerful force in intellectual history, especially when joined to a particular agenda, like seeing the gospels as myth. For every "basic" you cite, you have to ignore others, or you have to make the "basic" so general, that it not only "explains" Jesus, but Lincoln.

By the way, I'm not even arguing that the Hebrews (and through their culture the gospel writers) didn't obtain all kinds of ideas from the Egyptians that they incorporated into their religion. I take that as a given. Religious ideas flew all over the middle east and mediterranean area. That is quite different from arguing that the gospel narrative is based on a repraisal of an Egyptian myth. So even on its own terms your argument doesn't produce the conclusion you seek.

Yellum Notnef · 04-03-2008, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenton Mulley

You guys are falling right into Rogers trap and giving him the satisfaction of being right even if it is just a trivial matter that does nothing to show that Jesus is the real deal.

Well, Jesus may not be "the real deal" but if he isn't, he isn't due to Osiris, whose myth is so profoundly different from the gospel narrative that it takes a vast amount of intellectual massaging to make it even begin to fit, after which the Osiris myth basically "explains" every narrative you care to point to.

I agree with you and that was my point. The "other gods are exactly like Jesus" argument is (for the time being due to lack of sources) the only argument apologists like Roger can win here.

I say drop it and don't give him the satisfaction of a perceived "win". Yeah I know, I'm a wet blanket.

Clivedurdle · 04-03-2008, 02:16 PM

Quote:

So you see baptism as equivalent as being murdered, dumped in a river, and revived by magic (but left to life in the underworld).

Quote:

And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. 10And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
11And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
12And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.

Oh and to get really Ikeast - I forgot cannibalism - this is my body.

And murder - you must be born again.

And why is not the Jewish equivalent of the underworld the wilderness - where he is tempted by Satan and where the Children of Israel spent 40 years?

For example

http://www.writersstore.com/article.php?articles_id=30

Quote:

Classic Story Structure Begins with Plot
by Adam Sexton
What do we mean by Plot? Simply, plot is WHAT HAPPENS in a short story, novel, play or film. No more, no less. It isn't description or dialogue, and it certainly isn't theme. In the best stories, plot grows organically out of character, rather than being imposed from above. Specifically, plot is the result of choices made by characters in a story, especially the story's protagonist, or main character.

Even if action is not the most compelling feature of the story to you, the reader must always want to know -- actually NEED to know -- what happens next. Yes, plots are contrived, but that's what makes for art, not life. A theme -- your message or meaning -- is revealed through plot. For example, 'Money can't buy happiness' is just an empty threat, unless we observe a rich man who's miserable, as in George Eliot's 'Silas Marner.'

Renowned writer Anne Lamott ('Bird by Bird,' 'Operating Instructions') created a mnemonic device to help writers remember how to write plots that work:

Action
Background
Conflict
Development
End

Sitamun · 04-03-2008, 02:20 PM

If I recall correctly, many people site similarities between the HORUS myth and Jesus. Not Osiris. I'll see if I can find it but there was a great paper about Christianity being an amalgamation of most ancient religions. Take a bit from here, some from there etc. The christians have to admit a striking similarity of the Horus/Isis relationship to that of Jesus/Virgin Mary.

04-03-2008, 02:04 PM	#13
Yellum Notnef Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Gone Posts: 4,676	Parallels You guys are falling right into Rogers trap and giving him the satisfaction of being right even if it is just a trivial matter that does nothing to show that Jesus is the real deal.

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04-03-2008, 02:20 PM	#20
Sitamun Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 48	If I recall correctly, many people site similarities between the HORUS myth and Jesus. Not Osiris. I'll see if I can find it but there was a great paper about Christianity being an amalgamation of most ancient religions. Take a bit from here, some from there etc. The christians have to admit a striking similarity of the Horus/Isis relationship to that of Jesus/Virgin Mary.

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