Freethought & Rationalism Archive

SophistiCat · 10-30-2005, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pmarra

Probably if you use the same my technique applied to million of sentences you can find Pi in some sentence as I have found Pi in Gen1.1

Why millions? Thousands will do. Here are a couple more, from "War of the Worlds" (surely not divinely inspired?). But let's use e (2.71828...) for a change:

(1556) By midnight the blazing trees along the slopes of Richmond Park and the glare of Kingston Hill threw their light upon a network of black smoke, blotting out the whole valley of the Thames and extending as far as the eye could reach.
>> Result ~ 2.7183 / 3 * 10^n

(2111) The fifth cylinder must have fallen right into the midst of the house we had first visited.
>> Result ~ 2.7183 * 7 * 10^n

(where n is a whole number)

I am seriously considering changing my vocation. Here I am, puttering away at a little university office, with a measly Ph.D. to my credit, while I could be making groundbreaking discoveries - a dozen an hour! Oh the wasted years!

Quote:

But this your possible discovery is a confirmation of the extreme improbability to find Pi in every sentence however

Did anyone say otherwise? Depends on what you mean by "extreme improbability", of course.

TNorthover · 10-30-2005, 02:57 AM

Of course, we have to wonder about the nature of a god that would delight in putting a marginally unlikely event at the beginning of Genesis. Something that occurs throughout most texts from what we've seen here.

An impressive show of intelligence would have been continuing this pattern so that the next sentence gives the next few digits, and so on, throughout the bible. That would have been an achievement and got everyone's attention

A god who puts the first few digits and then stops, satisfied that it's proof enough? Strikes me as a bit of an underachiever: if he was a person he'd be called "Norman" and work in the tax-office as a middling bureaucrat, I feel.

Pmarra · 10-30-2005, 04:29 AM

your affirmation is very correct

Quote:

Originally Posted by tnorthover

Of course, we have to wonder about the nature of a god that would delight in putting a marginally unlikely event at the beginning of Genesis. Something that occurs throughout most texts from what we've seen here.

An impressive show of intelligence would have been continuing this pattern so that the next sentence gives the next few digits, and so on, throughout the bible. That would have been an achievement and got everyone's attention

A god who puts the first few digits and then stops, satisfied that it's proof enough? Strikes me as a bit of an underachiever: if he was a person he'd be called "Norman" and work in the tax-office as a middling bureaucrat, I feel.

but I had responded before to it

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pmarra

Moreover, we must point out immediately that it is not at all restrictive if we linger over the numerical analysis of the Biblical first verse. In fact the name Elohim appears throughout the Holy Scripture with a dominating role, as one of the Names of God, and other incredible peculiarities similar to the Biblical Pi are widespread throughout the Holy Text.

TNorthover · 10-30-2005, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pmarra

Moreover, we must point out immediately that it is not at all restrictive if we linger over the numerical analysis of the Biblical first verse. In fact the name Elohim appears throughout the Holy Scripture with a dominating role, as one of the Names of God, and other incredible peculiarities similar to the Biblical Pi are widespread throughout the Holy Text.

But surely you realise that having lots of similar things throughout is simply not unlikely? People have been pointing out such occurrences in other texts for the last few pages. Basically, if you've got enough text you can find these types of pattern.

A single coherent pattern all the way through though, would be staggeringly unlikely by chance (depending, obviously, on the specifics). Unfortunately, no such pattern has been spotted.

Pmarra · 10-30-2005, 04:44 AM

I have correctly pointed out always all values

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pmarra

Therefore we have:
PROD.LETTERS / PROD.WORDS =
2 x 200 x 300 x 10 x 400 x 2 x 200 x 30 x 5 x 10 x 40 x 400 x 5 x 300 x 40 x 10 x 40 x 6 x 400 x 5 x 200 x 90
/
913 x 203 x 86 x 401 x 395 x 407 x 296

That is

2,3887872 x 10e34 / 3,041535... x 10e17 = 0,785388... x 10e17 = (PI(biblical) x 10e17)/4

The symbol Pi , indicated in the result represents a number (3.1415...), Pi, the ratio of the circumference to its relative diameter. Nowadays, it is very familiar, even to middle school children, but at biblical times it was much less well known, above all, at a level of numerical precision because during this époque only the first digit of this number, that is, 3 was known. It wasn’t until a thousand years later, at the time of the great mathematician Archimedes of Syracuse (287-212 BC) that another two exact digits were discovered and the famous 3.14 was calculated.
In fact, back in 260 BC, Archimedes wrote: "The circumference is triple its own diameter, plus a part that is included between 1/7 and the 10/71". Thus, if we multiply the result by the number of the letters and we divide them by the number of the words:
[2,3887872 x 10e34 x 28(num.letters)] / [3,041535... x 10e17 x 7(num.words)] = PI(biblical) x 10e17

We obtain the exact length of a circumference with a diameter of 10e17, that is, 1 followed by 17 zeros, thus a further demonstration of the intentions of the insertion of this fundamental number, Pi, in the verse.

then the readers have the right to see the amazing values pointed out by others
and not only simple arbitrary results

Quote:

Originally Posted by SophistiCat

Why millions? Thousands will do. Here are a couple more, from "War of the Worlds" (surely not divinely inspired?). But let's use e (2.71828...) for a change:

(1556) By midnight the blazing trees along the slopes of Richmond Park and the glare of Kingston Hill threw their light upon a network of black smoke, blotting out the whole valley of the Thames and extending as far as the eye could reach.
>> Result ~ 2.7183 / 3 * 10^n

(2111) The fifth cylinder must have fallen right into the midst of the house we had first visited.
>> Result ~ 2.7183 * 7 * 10^n

(where n is a whole number)

Pmarra · 10-30-2005, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tnorthover

People have been pointing out such occurrences in other texts for the last few pages.

be more precise

unfortunately I have not seen here any scientific demonstration on other texts

TNorthover · 10-30-2005, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pmarra

be more precise

unfortunately I have not seen here any scientific demonstration on other texts

Oh dear oh dear. We either have a gnome hiding posts from you, or you've got the electronic equivalent of your fingers in your ears humming:

here
here
here

In addition, a quick back of the envelope calculation will convince you that the probability is high.

For example, assume that the result of this product calculation on a sentence is x*10^y, where x is in the range [0.1,1) uniformly (this is slightly wrong, but the real case actually increases the probability of finding a good number because the more likely actual values are also more likely to give a good approximation in total). Then we want either 3x, 4x, ..., 30x to be within distance e of PI, say. This covers:

2e(1/3 + 1/4 + ... + 1/30) of the range (2e because it can be above or below), for a probability of about 5e. Here we have e=10^-4, so the probability that an arbitrary sentence approximates PI is 5*10^-4. Now, a reasonable book seems to have more than 5000 sentences (just by a horribly crude count). This gives a probability of finding a good approximation of: 90%.

Of course, this is a gross underestimate because we're not just limited to the one method of calculation that happened to work on the beginning of the bible, nor are we limited to entire sentences (are the first 28 characters of Hebrew precisely the first sentence? I don't know enough Hebrew to say) or even to looking for PI (we could come up with at least 10 significant numbers in maths -- which by itself would increase the probability from 90% to 99.9999999986%).

In short, what you've found just isn't interesting or special.

Pmarra · 10-30-2005, 05:48 AM

in these 3 examples I don't see any list of values of the letters

also the other readers don't see the values of the letters

Quote:

Originally Posted by tnorthover

Oh dear oh dear. We either have a gnome hiding posts from you, or you've got the electronic equivalent of your fingers in your ears humming:

here
here
here

then the readers cannot understand if the calculations are correct or no

unfortunately I have not seen any scientific demonstration in these texts

reddish · 10-30-2005, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pmarra

unfortunately I have not seen here any scientific demonstration on other texts

Since you're obviously somewhat obtuse in the matter, let me run it by you once again, slowly this time.

(CASE 1)

Your method on the 28-letter, 7-word verse of Genesis 1, using the Hebrew number table.

L = product-of-letters: 23887872000000000000000000000000000
W = product-of-words: 304153525784175760

L / W = 78538862695777494.78985......

Woops! Doesn't look INTERESTING AT ALL. Hmmm. What happens if we divide by 25000000000?

This yields 3.14155450..... Oh my God! Praise the Lord! That's Pi accurate to no less than (yelp) FOUR WHOLE DIGITS! Praise the Lord!

(CASE 2)

Your method on the sentence "Everyone has the right to life liberty and security of person", as suggested by you in this message, using the alphabet-to-number mapping you suggested in this post.

L = product-of-letters:629948826895203577036800000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000
W = product-of-words: 247284331984070731350000000

L / W = 254746761285216757290994226841553767607719485226.5 97500....

Woops! Doesn't look INTERESTING AT ALL. Hmmm. What happens if we divide by 81088412590400000000000000000000000000000000000?

This yields 3.141592653589.....Oh my God! Praise the Lord! That's Pi accurate to no less than (yelp) TWELVE WHOLE DIGITS! Praise the Lord!

Now please, once again, why is Case 1 more scientific, less arbitrary, than Case 2? :banghead:

TNorthover · 10-30-2005, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pmarra

in these 3 examples I don't see any list of values of the letters

It doesn't matter what the values are: as we're trying to point out, you'll get coincidences whatever you do.

I notice you've completely ignored my rough calculation as well, I take it it's not a result you like?

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10-30-2005, 02:57 AM	#162
TNorthover Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ireland, Dark Continent Posts: 3,931	Of course, we have to wonder about the nature of a god that would delight in putting a marginally unlikely event at the beginning of Genesis. Something that occurs throughout most texts from what we've seen here. An impressive show of intelligence would have been continuing this pattern so that the next sentence gives the next few digits, and so on, throughout the bible. That would have been an achievement and got everyone's attention A god who puts the first few digits and then stops, satisfied that it's proof enough? Strikes me as a bit of an underachiever: if he was a person he'd be called "Norman" and work in the tax-office as a middling bureaucrat, I feel.

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