Biff the unclean

And if the amount of cash believers part with every year in this country in faith offerings isn't in the hundreds of billions I'll apologize to an apologist.

Biff the unclean

The economics are the story that’s being told. You can reject the story or you can reject Keynes. You can’t reject the story without a story to reject and you can’t reject Keynes without a Keynes to reject.

And so what if you do? Keynes is not part of a scam. You accept him you reject him, no harm, no foul. You can take the information Keynes has to offer or not, there is no “prize�? unrelated to pure information. No tons of dough, no salvation/eternal bliss. There is no “sucker-hook�? like … buy on to what Keynes is telling you and you’ll receive this brand new car (which I can’t actually show you) and a wonderful mansion in my Father’s house (which I can’t show you either ‘cause it’s in a realm other than the physical) And if you don’t accept his thoughts on economics you’ll suffer forever.
The promised, but never shown, never delivered sucker-hook is the mark of almost all scams.

Stumpjumper

It is possible to oversimplify this Biff. Sometimes I wonder how people are so fast to reject a message simply because they have no real "clear cut" reason to believe. But then I realized that people all have many different standards for believing a said claim. I went to the Academy of Natural Sciences with my kids today. (Too damn hot to go to the pool again.) The Philadelphia Academy is the oldest natural science museum in the country and they have some damn good stuff. But, if someone told me without my haviing seen it that a T-Rex existed well before homo-sapiens evolved and that it was as big as a tree, I would say he was full of shit. But, I saw a T-Rex today with his little stubby arms and my boys thought it was the coolest thing in the world.

But in regards to God and his existence, sometimes I think people do oversimplyfy the Christian story or even some of the other ones. They are complicated because either 1.) a transcendant God exists and its damn hard to boil down the meaning of life into an blog or newsflash or 2.) [I'm sure there are plenty more options but for space etc] God or God's don't exist and the creators of said stories have very good imaginations.

I obviously follow the first category and believe that the Christian message is very complicated because there is some real truth in that message. I can switch from an Emersonian Unitarian, a Devout Catholic, and a borderline atheist in the same day. But, at the end of the day I still thank God for the fun and the sun.


Actually, I see where you're coming from. It's kind of like that game we played when we were kids when you told a secret down the line and it either got better or worse at the end. In this case it's multiple lines and multiple messages and they are all either very confusing or total bullshit. It certainly looks like its shined over BS with every new apologetic. But, its also a pretty powerful theme that can be found from the very beginning. I find the same similarities between Origen's writings of 1800 years ago and say Hans Balthasar's of last decade. Maybe, its just me and I'm willing to buy the BS or maybe there's some real source of that mixed message.

Biff the unclean

No, I’m afraid is as simple and as transparent a scam as ever existed. There’s nothing complicated about it at all except for the snappy patter meant to confuse you.

Does it make you feel better to imagine that Atheists reject Christianity out of hand with little thought or consideration? If you’ve read these pages you would know that life doesn’t work that way.

Right, that’s called skepticism. It’s a very healthy way to be, it gets you through life in one piece.
Odd though that while you rightly wouldn’t believe in some big animal without having seen it, you suspend this same healthy skepticism for some God that not you (or anyone else) has seen. Why do you abandon your own standards?

Let me show you just how simple and transparent this scam is.
After buying into it you are promised a big pay off the minute you are dead. Dead, as in dead as a door nail, nailed in a box, six feet under. After you are dead you’ll enjoy the benefits…

That’s pretty simple.

“Transcendent�?…why isn’t your ‘bullshit’ alarm going off? If I promised you a transcendent sandwich or a transcendent wide screen TV you wouldn’t have any dealings with me.

Most con artists do.

I don’t really think that you do. Where I’m coming from has nothing much to do with religion as such.
If I’m going to sit down I look to see if there is a chair. If I don’t detect one I won’t sit out of faith. If I see the plate is empty I don’t attempt to eat the sandwich I don’t see. That’s the same standard you use. I find that this standard works very well so I don’t abandon it.
If someone offers me something that is too good to be true I check first to see if it is true before I sign onto it. If someone tells me that T Rexs existed I check to see if their claim is somehow supported. Someone offers me a ton of cash from Africa I don’t buy into it without checking.
I dare say that you probably behave exactly the same way. I’d even guess that you would consider, by these our shared standards, anyone who bought into that African scam to be very gullible indeed.
When the subject gets around to God why would I abandon the standard, which works so well on every other subject, and instead adopt a second standard that both you and I would consider foolish if used on any other subject, because it doesn’t work at all? (Note the unperceived chair)

Why would I be so foolish to accept a meaningless term like “transcendent�? to explain why I can’t perceive God when I’ve already read Hans Christian Andersen’s “The Emperors New Clothes?�?

The scam artists have convinced you of a complicated magical “transcendence�? who ha to explain away why you can’t perceive God.
The answer is so very, very simple. So simple that it’s impossible to “over�? simplify it. There’s nothing there to perceive.
There’s no money waiting for you in Nigeria and the Emperor is naked.

seebs

I dunno what "faith offerings" are. Sounds like a buzzword.

People do give money to the church I go to. I don't know how much, but enough for us to have a building to go to, and some food on the premises. On the other hand, all the records are there if we wanna see 'em. (Me, I'm too lazy.)

But... That some people use something as a basis to solicit money doesn't mean the thing itself is a scam.

Millions of dollars are scammed by people saying "I gotta feed my kids, please help", and not all those people have kids.

The correct conclusion is not "the desire to feed children is a scam", but "some people are taking advantage of this."

Are there sales weasels who use "I'm a Christian" as evidence of their honesty? Probably. Are they sincere believers? I have no idea. But I know that anyone unethical enough to scam people on sales is unlikely to balk at making false religious claims.

Biff the unclean

Faith offering, donation, gift, remembrances, there are no shortages of buzz words for cash

Of course they do, that’s the sole reason church exists.
Building, food, wages, utilities and salaries.
The other night Rev. Tim Muse mentioned how much he liked the duck at the five star Floating Restaurant in Hong Kong.

Some people? Ever been to the Crystal Cathedral in LA or the Vatican in Rome?
Anyway you seem to be forgetting that this thread is about salvation. The fact that shiny salvation is promised when you are a stiff is the scam. All of those millions spent to “oil the pearly gates, that’s the “gravy�? the “bunko.�?

You keep pointing at things that have no bearing on the subject. Hungry kids are there in plenty, skeptics have no problem with them, just as they have no problem with there being T Rex fossils. Not everything in this world that you spend money on is a scam. Just things with empty promises, claims that can’t be backed up.

This “I’m a Christian�? crap is another confidence game.
It’s not the big con that Christianity itself is, just a tiny related off-shoot.
Sincere Believer, John, Mark, Fish, Yokel, Sucker…all derogatory terms for the gullible victims of con jobs. “Sincere�? alright…hook, line and sinker sincere. Why do you think that those who are collecting the “agape donations�? (another buzz word for grand mothers social security check) make such a tremendous deal about how wonderful it is to “believe?�? Why do they claim gullibility is a virtue when it is not to honest people?

Stumpjumper

Hi Biff

I don't believe that you do dismiss anything out of hand. But, in my short time here I have certainly thought about life, religion, and logical arguments more than in all my past correspondances. This is the only forum I post at and I feel that most people here have well reasoned positions. Honestly, I feel myself moving away from this discussion forum and that these last few posts and thoughts are my way of relaying to people that have made an impact on my thinking.

But, in regards to my comments earlier I ave come to the conclusion that belief of lack thereof is not really something that can be found among others but is something that is found within. Sure, we can discuss our thoughts and ideas with others but a belief system is something that seems to transcend logic. Neither logical or illogical but something that logic has no bearing upon. (This goes for any kind of belief (atheist or theist or any variety in between).

Well this was actually my point with the T-Rex example. 200 years ago people would have had no reason to believe that T-Rex's had existed in the past. But, now we all know they did. So sometimes even though we have no clear cut reason to believe (and by clear cut I mean irrefutable evidence) in the existence of God, that God could possibly exist anyway.

In my short time here I've realized that there is no bulletpoof argument for or against many belief systems (allright I'm pretty sure Calvinism is pretty much logically incoherent).

But anyway, although you may not have known it our correspondances have impacted upon my thinking. And when I said I know where you're coming from I meant in regard to all the different apologetics available. It seems you can make an argument for Christianity in face of all diversity. With me, though I don't really need to counter all arguments because I am not dogmatic in many of my beliefs. But, for those who are I can see them fighting from here to eternity.

The main reason I believe in something is that I see most "enlightened" writings as a record of man reaching for something above his current position. I myself believe that that is a noble quest. As long as those searching do not abandon their fellow humans.

DBT

As there is no evidence for the existence of God, a belief in God requires a motive and that motive is clearly based on emotion - namely.. desire.

Basically a desire for;
*An ultimate meaning to life
*Favour in this life and the next
*Justice in this life and the next
*Eternal life

None of which actually supports the existence of God..so at this point any belief in God seems to be a trifle premature.

Stumpjumper

DBT

Your response is probably one of the main reasons that I have decided to stop posting here. Everyone seems to want to put decisions, desires, and beliefs into a category. I desire none of the above more than simply just a good life with those around me. Sure, eternal life would be nice but I certainly do not believe that if an eternal life exists that it is only attainable for a select few. Your other categories are pure prejudice and that is something that I try to avoid

Biff the unclean

There you are wrong. There is no “beyond�? logic. All you have done is what the victims of every con have done. You’ve let your greed get the better of you and you have suspended your use of logic.
That makes not the slightest bit of sense.
Before there was evidence of T Rex people did not believe in them. They had never heard of them.
You make it sound as if they believed first and found T Rex later.
Here’s a simple fact about this world…if someone is giving you information that neither they or anyone else have any way of knowing then that person is lying to you.
Here’s another simple fact, belief (a.k.a. gullibility) is not in itself a virtue.

You want a bullet-proof argument? Fine, turn to the first page of the first book of the bible. Look down around line 6. It’s the story of the “creation of the universe as told by the creator to Moses.�? You read that and come back and tell me if what is being “created�? in this story is the universe you live in, or is it total bullshite.

No “sucker�? is dogmatic in their beliefs. That’s why, when the cops won’t let them put up a toll booth on the Brooklyn Bridge, they still come up with an apologetic in their heads about why they really do own it.
The problem your beliefs have is not in their details, it fundimental.

The main reason is that you are greedy. You want that promised reward. That treasure of salvation that you, in your fallen state do not deserve and cannot earn. You want eternal bliss.
“Enlightened�? writings is what the cons on the street call “snappy patter�? or the “hook.�? Shall I forward to you the Email from the “widow of the finance minister of Nigeria�?? Her writing was “enlightened�? also.
You aren’t on some noble quest, you’re being taken for a ride.
Like the saying goes “you can’t cheat an honest man.�? You weren’t content with what you could earn for yourself and you’ve swallowed the bait.