Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ben C Smith · 04-29-2008, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Lilith or lamia (לילית): Isaiah 34.14.

The Anchor Bible Dictionary, volume 2, pages 138-139, article: Demons, states that, "the use of the term demon in relation to the OT is problematic," but it acknowledges that Lilith (Isaiah 34:14) and Azazel (Leviticus 16) are "[g]enerally accepted as two specific demons referred to in the OT."

I neglected to include Azazel (which some translations turn into the wilderness or such, IIRC).

The lilith (or Lilith) is one of the items on my list that I consider most likely to be a fabulous creature. The dragon and the phoenix also seem more likely to me than some of the others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Also, of course, consider the famous leviathan and the behemoth (Job 41).

These are chaos monsters. See my post here.

Good post there, John.

I notice A. Mayor had a cameo on that thread. Love that book, The First Fossil Hunters (or via: amazon.co.uk). Her book on ancient chemical and biological warfare (or via: amazon.co.uk) is also very good.

Ben.

Potoooooooo · 04-29-2008, 08:10 AM

what could the fauns/satyrs have been?

Clivedurdle · 04-29-2008, 08:15 AM

On the development of ideas about flying dragons, finding huge unknown bones in cliffs can only lead to one conclusion before Darwin!

Quote:

The remains of these nine great quadrupeds, and many detached bones, were found embedded
on the beach, within the space of about 200 yards square. It is a remarkable circumstance that
so many different species should be found together; and it proves how numerous in kind the
ancient inhabitants of this country must have been. At the distance of about thirty miles from
Punta Alta, in a cliff of red earth, I found several fragments of bones, some of large size.
Among them were the teeth of a gnawer, equalling in size and closely resembling those of the
Capybara, whose habits have been described; and therefore, probably, an aquatic animal.

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=1&gl=uk

Clivedurdle · 04-29-2008, 09:08 AM

My most excellent source - Dake - discusses satyrs - half man half goat with horns on the man's head, the body all hairy and the feet and tail those of a goat - one of the character's in Satanic Verses is like this - and Dake refers to Esau - a hairy man.

Lilith is missing from his concordance. Leviathan is said to be a name of Satan.

Lilith according to my encylopedia of mythology was according to Hebrew legend the first woman to be created. She was portrayed as part snake, part woman and wearing wings. Yahweh blamed her for having tempted Eve to reveal the mysteries of the Garden of Eden to Adam. Her name means storm goddess or she of the night. The owl was her sacred creature.

:devil1:

Clivedurdle · 04-29-2008, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Azazel is the chief of the Se'irim, or goat-demons, who haunted the desert and to whom most primitive Semitic (most likely non-Hebrew) tribes offered sacrifices. The Old Testament states that Jeroboam appointed priests for the Se'irim. But Josiah destroyed the places of their worship, as the practices accompanying this worship involved copulation of women with goats.

The Se'irim, or hairy demons as the word itself means, are mentioned in Leviticus 17:7 and 2 Chronicles 11:15 as "goat-demons". Isaiah 34:14 says that the "goat-demons" greet each other amoung the ruins of Edom along with Lilith and other wild beasts.

http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/deliri...w.asp?Post=100

Clivedurdle · 04-29-2008, 09:18 AM

KJV Isaiah 34 14

The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow, the screech owl shall also rest there and find for herself a place of rest.

(Prophecy that animals will go to heaven and hell?:devil1

Potoooooooo · 04-29-2008, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

My most excellent source - Dake - discusses satyrs -

Now who is Dake?

Clivedurdle · 04-29-2008, 10:40 AM

Theology 101 to understand Pentecostals!

http://www.dake.com/

Quote:

Finis Jennings Dake (1902-1987) was an American Pentecostal minister and evangelist known primarily for his voluminous writings on the subjects of Pentecostal (or Charismatic) Evangelical Christian spirituality and Premillennial Dispensationalism: his most well known work being his Dake Annotated Reference Bible.
Dake’s work was arguably the first popularly received study bible produced by someone from a Pentecostal theological framework. Previous similar efforts were invariably produced from ardent anti-pentecostalists (such as C.I.Scofield’s Study Bible)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finis_Jennings_Dake

He is wonderful on beasties including pictures and diagrams!

xaxxat · 04-29-2008, 11:23 AM

How about those bad boys from space, the Nephilim ( Anunnaki )...

makerowner · 04-29-2008, 12:33 PM

OK, so I checked about the unicorn, and it was the aurochs, or urus. The name ראם is cognate with the Assyrian rîmu, which was used as the caption of a picture showing an aurochs, so that seems pretty certain. Seems the LXX didn't know what an aurochs was and translated it μονοκερως, probably under the influence of the historian Ctesias' description of unicorns in India (probably rhinoceroses), but also possibly influenced by bas-relief depictions of aurochs in Assyrian, Babylonian, and later Persian art (though it had died out in that area by the time the Persians started copying them). It had already in the Persian era become something of a mythical animal, known for its strength and wildness. The legends just spiralled out of control from there, including one that it was so big Noah couldn't fit it onto the ark, forcing it to swim for the duration of the Flood!
I seem to recall something about the leviathan being a crocodile and the behemoth either a rhino or a hippopotamus, but I'll have to take a look for confirmation.

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04-29-2008, 08:10 AM	#12
Potoooooooo Contributor Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: USA Posts: 13,541	what could the fauns/satyrs have been?

04-29-2008, 09:08 AM	#14
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	My most excellent source - Dake - discusses satyrs - half man half goat with horns on the man's head, the body all hairy and the feet and tail those of a goat - one of the character's in Satanic Verses is like this - and Dake refers to Esau - a hairy man. Lilith is missing from his concordance. Leviathan is said to be a name of Satan. Lilith according to my encylopedia of mythology was according to Hebrew legend the first woman to be created. She was portrayed as part snake, part woman and wearing wings. Yahweh blamed her for having tempted Eve to reveal the mysteries of the Garden of Eden to Adam. Her name means storm goddess or she of the night. The owl was her sacred creature. :devil1:

04-29-2008, 09:18 AM	#16
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	KJV Isaiah 34 14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow, the screech owl shall also rest there and find for herself a place of rest. (Prophecy that animals will go to heaven and hell?:devil1

04-29-2008, 11:23 AM	#19
xaxxat Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Space Station 33 Posts: 2,543	How about those bad boys from space, the Nephilim ( Anunnaki )...

04-29-2008, 12:33 PM	#20
makerowner Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,962	OK, so I checked about the unicorn, and it was the aurochs, or urus. The name ראם is cognate with the Assyrian rîmu, which was used as the caption of a picture showing an aurochs, so that seems pretty certain. Seems the LXX didn't know what an aurochs was and translated it μονοκερως, probably under the influence of the historian Ctesias' description of unicorns in India (probably rhinoceroses), but also possibly influenced by bas-relief depictions of aurochs in Assyrian, Babylonian, and later Persian art (though it had died out in that area by the time the Persians started copying them). It had already in the Persian era become something of a mythical animal, known for its strength and wildness. The legends just spiralled out of control from there, including one that it was so big Noah couldn't fit it onto the ark, forcing it to swim for the duration of the Flood! I seem to recall something about the leviathan being a crocodile and the behemoth either a rhino or a hippopotamus, but I'll have to take a look for confirmation.

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