Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Heathen Dawn · 09-06-2004, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gawen

I mean that I don't consider myself, by default, jumping out of an airplane without a parachute.

Of course. That’s why I put it in the category of factual doubts. Whereas, by “hypothetical pondering” I meant something else: pondering on the things with the [Christian] assumption granted. I have factual doubts that we’re on a skydive without a parachute, I have hypothetical ponderings as to why we got kicked out of the plane.

Quote:

The statement also renders a meaning that, by default, we consciously volunteer to jump into a one way fall to our death.

No, Christianity has it that the Pilot’s got us all kicked out of the plane (for touching the forbidden joystick or something like that).

Gawen · 09-06-2004, 07:33 AM

Ok...I understand you now. Thanks.

Cynthia of Syracuse · 09-06-2004, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heathen Dawn

No, Christianity has it that the Pilot’s got us all kicked out of the plane (for touching the forbidden joystick or something like that).

Mmmmm, kinky.

Sorry, sorry, sorry, couldn't help myself..... it was just such a gimme. :devil3:

Eric H · 09-06-2004, 01:53 PM

Hello koyaanisqatsi,

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi

I disagree and here's why. You couldn't possibly know the "right" thing to do;

I didn't say I knew what to do, I said we may THINK we may know what to do there is a difference.

Quote:

just looking lustfully at another woman means you're committing adultery).

I have to confess to that one also, I don't look at a woman and think thats a nice skirt shes wearing, there are other thoughts going through my mind. In truth I do often think we commit a kind of adultry in our mind.
There would be a lot less problems in this world if we could all be faithful to one partner, I messed up on that also. Jesus sets out an ideal way of life, but knows that this is hard to achieve. Hence we believe that we can be forgiven. There is hope with a loving God.

Quote:

See where I'm going? On the one hand, you're told that (over and over) that you are an inherently sinful creature, unworthy of your God's/Father's (note the psychological impact) grace at the same time that you are told that your God/Father is nothing but love and that he loves all his creatures.

It is possible to search for a worst interpretation of the Bible and you can find many. It is also possible to search for a greatest good interpretation, and that gives hope.

Quote:

If part of the indoctrination process is that you are almost literally brow-beaten (as a child, no less) into thinking that you are, in essence, inherently worthless simply because you were born,

I may be jumping to wrong conclusions here but this sounds as if you may be talking about yourself. If this is how you where brought up I can understand why you would want to reject Christianity.
I was brought up in a similar but different way and I left the church when I was about 18. I was probably agnostic for about thirty years and had no real desire to know if God existed or not.

I used to say the church was full of hypocrites saying one thing and doing another. I came back to believe in God despite all the apparent failings I thought existed within the church. As our priest said, we may think the church is full of hypocrites but there is always room for one more.
Whatever the failings are within our church I do see the visible signs that we are being encouraged to help in the community and give something back.

Quote:

Your church/scripture/dogma creates a false positive in your mind (again, typically throughout your formative years, when you are mentally most vulnerable to such inculcation) and then tells you that you'd better do something about this situation, or face eternal damnation

Sadly I think there are people who try and instill fear in people, but I think this backfires. When the child grows up and thinks for themselves, they walk away.

Quote:

And then, if that weren't vague enough, certain sections say good works will do it and other sections say no amount of good works will do it. Other sections say all you need is faith and still others say that only by the grace of God can you be saved. The OT, of course, mentions nothing about belief in an incarnate god/messiah as your salvation, but the NT says that only through the Son can you be granted salvation by the Father

.
Despite all the very real confusion, I believe the most anyone can do is their best, and do it with the best intention.

Quote:

there are so many acts attributed to this God in the Bible that we could not possibly consider anything other than evil, or, at the very least, unspeakably cruel; actions that contradict the commandment to accept that God can do no evil.

Yes when you read of all the killings done in the name of God in the Old Testament it can be troubling, and I cannot pretend to know the mind of God.

Despite all that I have to believe and hope that God is a God of love, you may say that is foolish, but these are my beliefs.

Quote:

Not to put too fine a point on it, but that kind of backwards thinking is precisely what has led Bush, Inc. to justify the maiming/murder of over 20,000 innocent men, women and children in just Iraq alone (and still counting), not to mention millenia of similar "justifiable" wars and killing in God's name.

I'm British and I didn't agree with Tony Blair going to war against Iraq, and Bush is very wrong to say he is making a crusade against terror.

Quote:

And the reason they think they're all right is because there is more than enough justification for any attrocity found right smack dab in the Bible.

I agree, but if there is a God and if he created us so we could make choices then he would know that we would want to do whatever we want. One example comes to mind, there was a case a few years ago of a serial killer murdering prostitutes, when he was eventually caught, he said he heard God telling him to kill the women.

I agree with you when you say you can justify just about anything in the Bible, but there is also a way of searching for a greatest good. We can search for and find whatever we want to find, if that makes sense.

Quote:

"Faith" is necessarily non-thinking and mindless
It's a competition with no clearcut guidelines, built on the false premise that we're all inherently worthless to begin with.

Just my beliefs but I would have to disagree with you.

Quote:

Yes, well, he also said that to be his disciple, you had to hate everyone, including yourself.

That is an interpretation I would disagree with, Christs last commandment to his disciples was love one another as I have loved you, by this all men will know that you are my disciples.

Quote:

But isn't the argument that "Christian love" necessarily entails evangelizing?

Yes but evangelising is not the greatest thing we are commanded to do.
The only thing I can say with confidence is I believe God exists, and I believe that Jesus died to forgive us our sins. I doubt if those words on their own could evangelise anyone. Anything else I believe is down to my own interpretation, and so it would be wrong of me to push these beliefs on anyone.
To change from saying there is no God. to saying there is a God requires a masive change of heart, and it has to be done willingly and freely.

Quote:

Yes, but in the same breath, you do not consider yourself to be "like" those "other" Christians, right?

I consider myself to be like other Christians, Muslim, Hindu atheists and others who are searching for truth.

Quote:

At what point do you finally say, "This doesn't work;

Faith is a journey always one day at a time, it is tested daily, and it requires you to do something.

It is the difference between wanting to believe and needing to believe. I can say I want food, but I have a regular supply. If it ever got to a point where I went three or four days without food, I would then need food and I would be forced to do something to get that food.

I suppose in answer to your question, it would be if I chose to stop doing things in the belief that God exists. Faith does at times require a certain amount of determination when it is tested.

Thats one long post each, can we try and reduce them, I'm going to be stuck for time over the next few days,

Have a nice day

peace

Eric.

Newton Joseph · 09-06-2004, 04:24 PM

Christian people are loving, but the Christian religion itself is not loving. I’ve long ceased to attack Christians as people, but my attacks, whenever they share the gospel with me, are always directed towards their religion, their belief system.

CHRISTIAN LOVE OF HUMANKIND SEEMS TO BE
SORROWFULLY MISSING
New10.
With the rise of Christian Fundamentalism and the wealth and power of
the Catholic Church with the support of so many politicians of faith-
based programs everyday America is looking more like a theocracy.
It started with putting "In God We Trust" on our money.
With the meeting of more than 10,000 Christian clergy in Amsterdam
this year, mapping their strategy to conquer the world for Jesus. On
top of their agenda is how to disenfranchise all those who are not
Christian. This rhetoric sounds as if it came out of Mein Kamf. Will there
be a new inquisition?
In the past two thousand years of Christianity all of human kind never
experienced the love that Christianity promises. But they did
experience Christian fury.
www.atheistfllowship.com

:devil1:

Eric H · 09-06-2004, 08:45 PM

Hello Newton Joseph

Quote:

In the past two thousand years of Christianity all of human kind never experienced the love that Christianity promises. But they did
experience Christian fury.

It is not only atheists who disagree with the apparent misuse of wealth and power within religion.

I am totally against the wealth of the Vatican. If all the Popes were to follow in the footsteps of Christ they would not be in the Vatican, they would have travelled around Palestine and Israel, going to the places that need them the most.

I read somewhere that at least eighty percent of all wars were mixed up with religion in some way; to me that is wrong.

All the torture and killings of the inquisitions that were done in the name of religion, were also wrong;

Terrorists acting in the name of Islam, are only doing the same kind of thing that terrorists have done in the name of Christianity.

Being a Catholic for me does not mean that I agree with everything done in the name of the Catholic Church. I challenge peoples attitudes within the church, but in doing that I also have my own attitudes challenged.

Quote:

www.atheistfllowship.com

I could not get your link to work.

peace

Eric

christ-on-a-stick · 09-06-2004, 09:06 PM

<fan-girl>

Koy, you rock the house. :notworthy

</fan-girl>

funinspace · 09-07-2004, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heathen Dawn

The premises are: we are all, by default, skydiving off a plane without a parachute. The end of this skydive without a parachute is a bad one. Christians are called to give people the one and only parachute that can save them. There are other things that look like parachutes, but the premises are that only the Christian model will open and save the skydiver. You believe everyone is on a skydive without a parachute, and you have the parachute that will rescue them from an ominous fate, so the natural thing to do is to give people parachutes. Under the premises, this is the most loving thing you can do. Christian evangelists are, in and of themselves, doing a loving thing.

Of course, the problem is the premises. First is the factual doubt: who says we’re all skydiving off a plane without a parachute? Second is the religious question: how do you know only your type of parachute is going to open in the end? Third is the hypothetical pondering: what did we do to deserve it that the Pilot should have us all kicked out of the plane onto a skydive without a parachute? These are the pertinent questions, and they all pertain to the premises. And that’s my point: I no longer have complaints or hatred or misgivings towards Christian evangelists (as long as they don’t interfere with my freedom, that is). Whatever complaints and hatred and misgivings I have are towards the Christian religion—the premises. Christian people are loving, but the Christian religion itself is not loving. I’ve long ceased to attack Christians as people, but my attacks, whenever they share the gospel with me, are always directed towards their religion, their belief system.

Discuss.

I like the forced parachuting allegory, very befitting. Hum, another phrase comes to mind "Hate the dogma, not the Xian"

I think that this is part of what and why modern mainstream Protestantism is evolving the way it is. It is a rare day when they speak of depravity of humanity et.al. And many of them will nary speak of a "hell" befalling the "other" people who don't believe, or don't believe in the right way.

Oh, and alas the day if you sucsessfully ban yourself from some areas around here...

Valdemar · 09-07-2004, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newton Joseph

Christian people are loving, but the Christian religion itself is not loving. I’ve long ceased to attack Christians as people, but my attacks, whenever they share the gospel with me, are always directed towards their religion, their belief system.

Christian people are people who may or may not be loving. Many Christians say they base their love and their hate on their holy book. But their true nature comes from within and skews their interpretation of their faith.

I agree, the Christian religion is NOT loving.

My attacks are directed towards those who deserve it.

Emp-JohnIV · 09-07-2004, 08:56 PM

Most Christians have good intentions, but they are horrably misguided. The problem is not love or anything of that nature, it is ignorance and stuborness.

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09-06-2004, 07:33 AM	#12
Gawen Contributor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Cylon Occupied Texas, but a Michigander @ heart Posts: 10,326	Ok...I understand you now. Thanks.

09-06-2004, 04:24 PM	#15
Newton Joseph Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 496	Christian people are loving, but the Christian religion itself is not loving. I’ve long ceased to attack Christians as people, but my attacks, whenever they share the gospel with me, are always directed towards their religion, their belief system. CHRISTIAN LOVE OF HUMANKIND SEEMS TO BE SORROWFULLY MISSING New10. With the rise of Christian Fundamentalism and the wealth and power of the Catholic Church with the support of so many politicians of faith- based programs everyday America is looking more like a theocracy. It started with putting "In God We Trust" on our money. With the meeting of more than 10,000 Christian clergy in Amsterdam this year, mapping their strategy to conquer the world for Jesus. On top of their agenda is how to disenfranchise all those who are not Christian. This rhetoric sounds as if it came out of Mein Kamf. Will there be a new inquisition? In the past two thousand years of Christianity all of human kind never experienced the love that Christianity promises. But they did experience Christian fury. www.atheistfllowship.com :devil1:

09-06-2004, 09:06 PM	#17
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	<fan-girl> Koy, you rock the house. :notworthy </fan-girl>

09-07-2004, 08:56 PM	#20
Emp-JohnIV Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Makezero.com Posts: 1,547	Most Christians have good intentions, but they are horrably misguided. The problem is not love or anything of that nature, it is ignorance and stuborness.

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