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Old 09-06-2006, 01:21 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Loomis View Post
... have you ever considered the possibility that some of the stories in the OT about Yahweh may have originally been about other gods? And that the name “Yahweh” was just tacked on?
I think I mentioned that possibility indirectly, when I mentioned that some parts of the Bible, like Noah's Flood, can be traced back to earlier mythologies.

In particular, Noah's Flood is much like the flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh, but with the multiple deities in the original turned into Yahweh.

As to outside mentions, the first king to get outside mention is King Omri, known to Assyrians as King Humri.

Before that, there is exactly one reference, in Pharaoh Merneptah's victory stele of around 1200 BCE:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merneptah
The princes are prostrate saying: "Shalom!"
Not one of the Nine Bows lifts his head:
Tjehenu is vanquished, Khatti at peace,
Canaan is captive with all woe.
Ashkelon is conquered, Gezer seized,
Yanoam made nonexistent;
Israel is wasted, bare of seed,
Khor is become a widow for Egypt.
All who roamed have been subdued.
By the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Banere-meramun,
Son of Re, Merneptah, Content with Maat,
Given life like Re every day.
Merneptah Stele gives the original Egyptian:

ysri`r (people) fk.t bn pr.t f

Israel waste not seed/grain his/its
"Israel is laid waste; its seed is not."

"Israel" here has no determinative for country or realm; this was a people without a territory, possibly some nomads.
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Old 09-06-2006, 01:57 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by hinduwoman View Post
Then the answer is no one really knows when jews became Jews. I guess that is true of all ancient cultures.
But, this does not close the door to speculation. My guess is more on the side of the minimalists. However, the Bible is a compilation of stories, many of which appear to be of very ancient origins. The problem comes when one attempts to tie these stories together in a single neat story line, and label this tale as a 'history' of the Jewish people, an attempt which is indeed made in the Bible as it has come down to us.

Yet, the stories of the Patriarchs are fantastic, with individual lifespans of half a millennium or more. Even Abraham is supposed to have lived to the age of more than 160. And the story of Moses is as wildly fantastical, as any that came before. The surprise, as presented in 'The Bible Unearthed' (discussed earlier in this and other threads), is that the invasion of the land of Canaan itself is seriously in doubt. Plus, both David and Solomon were more like minor hill country chiefs (if they existed at all) than leaders of a great kingdom. And then there is the whole question of the origins of monotheism? Recently, I have increasingly come to favor the view of the Bible as a compilation dating from after the 'return' from the Babylonian exile, and taking its final form perhaps as late as the Maccabees: written, perhaps, as propaganda to add a veneer of history, covering the largely mythical origins of the Jewish people?
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