Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Minimalist · 11-25-2007, 09:06 AM

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to a level which they can comprehend 1400 years ago.

It is now 1400 years later. Time for an update.

Salam · 11-25-2007, 11:26 AM

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Originally Posted by Osbert

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Originally Posted by Salam

First of all, we need to understand the nature of the Quran in order to understand why. The Quran was revealed to people who were (and still are) very proud of their poetic abilities (not scientific nor their philosophy). So, in order to impress them, God in the Quran demonstrate a very high quality of poetry. Which consists of simple, short and correct verses. We can't discuss the quality of the literature here since most people here have a limited knowledge about the Arabic language.

Welcome to the Forum, Salam, I hope you have many meaningful debates.

Does the Quran have a very "high quality of poetry" ?

Abū Bakr Muhammad ibn Zakarīya Rāzi, born 865 CE died 925 CE (al-Razi) commented on the Quran and said:

"You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say: "Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one." Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. ...
By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say: "Produce something like it"?!"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Razi

Have you read much poetry?

Very interesting. Al Razi is one of my most favorite Islamic figures.

It's interesting that he was very close to the Caliphate at the time, and also quotes verses from the Quran in his books. It only shows that the Islamic world wasn't as conservative as it now.

I got to do more reading before I can have a proper discussion with you guys.

Will start with this book - Doubt: A History: The Great Doubters and Their Legacy of Innovation from Socrates and Jesus to Thomas Jefferson and Emily Dickinson (or via: amazon.co.uk)

:wave:

Lucretius · 11-26-2007, 02:21 AM

Even if we were to accept that the quality of the poetry is a significant factor in the quality of the argument then De Rerum Natura would still win.
It contains not just in my opinion but that of many scholars and poets too , some of the finest poetry ever written.
Sadly most translations into English are usually "converted " into at times fairly pedestrian prose and the few poetical translations from the Latin I have ever read fail to really convey the true poetic beauty of the poem.
It would seem that to truly appreciate it you have to know and understand Latin (which fortunately I do )

gurugeorge · 11-26-2007, 02:34 AM

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Originally Posted by Lucretius

(Of course I am ignoring the dedication to the godess Venus in the opening lines of DRN

)

And don't forget that it was the goddess Persephone who inspired Parmenides' logic - according to the beautiful proem to the work that made him famous as the "father of logic" in the West.

Osbert · 11-26-2007, 04:33 AM

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Originally Posted by Salam

Very interesting. Al Razi is one of my most favorite Islamic figures.

It's interesting that he was very close to the Caliphate at the time, and also quotes verses from the Quran in his books. It only shows that the Islamic world wasn't as conservative as it now.

I got to do more reading before I can have a proper discussion with you guys.

Will start with this book - Doubt: A History: The Great Doubters and Their Legacy of Innovation from Socrates and Jesus to Thomas Jefferson and Emily Dickinson (or via: amazon.co.uk)

:wave:

I also like Al Razi very much.

You are right, Islam was much more confident, a different world before Al Ghazali.

Sounds like an interesting book, I hope you enjoy your read.

Lucretius · 11-26-2007, 04:38 AM

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Originally Posted by gurugeorge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucretius

(Of course I am ignoring the dedication to the godess Venus in the opening lines of DRN

)

And don't forget that it was the goddess Persephone who inspired Parmenides' logic - according to the beautiful proem to the work that made him famous as the "father of logic" in the West.

Yes it is strange that these non existent gods and godesses seem to have inspired as much if not more truth and beauty than the Christian or Muslim god with a capital G

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11-26-2007, 02:21 AM	#23
Lucretius Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: . Posts: 1,014	Even if we were to accept that the quality of the poetry is a significant factor in the quality of the argument then De Rerum Natura would still win. It contains not just in my opinion but that of many scholars and poets too , some of the finest poetry ever written. Sadly most translations into English are usually "converted " into at times fairly pedestrian prose and the few poetical translations from the Latin I have ever read fail to really convey the true poetic beauty of the poem. It would seem that to truly appreciate it you have to know and understand Latin (which fortunately I do )

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