Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Doug Shaver · 09-17-2008, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Let me know if you want to keep going -13 more chapters

Very tempting, actually, but I've been procrastinating on another project that has an immovable deadline and is going to keep me pretty busy for some time.

storytime · 09-17-2008, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Why would you think there was a Roman church at the time of Pauls writing? There may have been a Jewish synagogue in Rome, but an established Gentile church worshiping Jesus?

There was multiple synagogues. Outside of Judea and Alexandria, Rome was liklely the largest concentration of Jews at this time.

Their was an established church. You can gather that from this letter. It met in at least five different homes 1) Priscilla and Aquilla, 2) family of Aristobolus, 3) the family of Narcissus, 4) an apparent backelor pad occupied by Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas and hermas and 5) a home belonging to Philogus, Julia, Nereus, his sister, and Olympus. Many of these are greek names and no reason to assume they are jewish. Nero blamed the Christians for burning Rome. they must have been established enough to be considered a faction of some sort.

I am not sure of your point. Let's look at it. end of Acts 28

(Acts 28:21) They replied, "We have received no letters from Judea about you, nor have any of the brothers come from there and reported or said anything bad about you.
(Acts 28:22) But we would like to hear from you what you think, for regarding this sect we know that people everywhere speak against it."

The Jews are aware of the Christian sect and want to hear from Paul directly

(Acts 28:23) They set a day to meet with him, and they came to him where he was staying in even greater numbers. From morning until evening he explained things to them, testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus from both the law of Moses and the prophets.
(Acts 28:24) Some were convinced by what he said, but others refused to believe.(Acts 28:25) So they began to leave, unable to agree among themselves, after Paul made one last statement: "The Holy Spirit spoke rightly to your ancestors through the prophet Isaiah
(Acts 28:26) when he said,
' Go to this people and say,
" You will keep on hearing, but will never understand,
and you will keep on looking, but will never perceive.
(Acts 28:27) For the heart of this people has become dull,
and their ears are hard of hearing,
and they have closed their eyes,
so that they would not see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them." '

Paul makes a compelling argument from Scripture.

(Acts 28:28) "Therefore be advised that this salvation from God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen!"
(Acts 28:30) Paul lived there two whole years in his own rented quarters and welcomed all who came to him,
(Acts 28:31) proclaiming the kingdom of God and teaching about the Lord Jesus Christ with complete boldness and without restriction.

Paul advises them that they should be aware that salvation has been sent to the Gentiles. He welcomed ALL (Jews, gentiles, pagans, Romans) who came to him for the next 2 years.

the blind see, the lame walk, the dead raised. He is providing John the Baptist encouragement and reassurance that Jesus is in fact the Messiah by showing his fulfillment of OT prophecy One example of the dead raised is just before this in Matt 9:18-26.

then why did God make the same promise to Jacob:

(Gen 28:14) Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west, east, north, and south. All the families of the earth will pronounce blessings on one another using your name and that of your descendants.

and why did God make this promise to his son Judah:

(Gen 49:10) The scepter will not depart from Judah,
nor the ruler's staff from between his feet,
until he comes to whom it belongs;
the nations will obey him.

circumcison was a sign of the covemant, not the terms of the requirement. Abraham was justified in Gen 15:6 by beleiving God. this is before circumcision.

(Gen 17:11) You must circumcise the flesh of your foreskins. This will be a reminder of the covenant between me and you.

Quote:

Jesus could not have been the fulfillment of the law as the law did not need a man to support it. However, as a rabbi priest, Jesus in his obligatory duty may be seen as fulfilling his role in that position, as he said to John the Baptist, "it hath come unto us to fulfill all these things". Both were acting as priests. Both were firstborn sons, a Jewish tradition or a Levitical mandate? :huh:

John fulfilled a specific prophecy.

Jesus fulfilled the law in that the offense of breaking the law exacted a penalty (death) and Jesus fulfilled this requirement. The law was present to convict and the judgment for all men breaking the law was guilty. the penalty is death and Jesus paid the price. The law fulfilled, not ended. Being only a perfect man, he could have only died for one other. Being God, his sacrifice was for all.

(Rom 3:25) God publicly displayed him at his death as the mercy seat accessible through faith. This was to demonstrate his righteousness, because God in his forbearance had passed over the sins previously committed.

~Steve

Acts 28:28-29 Pauls argument was not compelling enough for educated Jews who were proficient in their study of law and prophet sayings. Paul toys with the saying of Isaiah in attempt to validate Gentile equality with Jews. However, Isaiah is speaking to Jewish/israel people and not to the Gentile world.

When God says to Isaiah "Go to this people and say", God is sending Isiah in protest to the Jewish/Israel people, not to the Gentile world.

It makes no sense (to me at least), that Gentiles would have needed salvation as Gentiles were never given the laws and tradition of Jews by which life and death were predicated on. And, according to OT scripture in adherance to requirements of God, one law was standardized for the Jew first, with expected compliance of the Gentile convert also. Therein, God was said to be no respector of persons.

Pauls faith only doctrine in attempt to make Gentiles equal to Jews in the Kingdom of God evidenced his blasphemy in speaking against the word of God. But then, so did Jesus in making himself equal to God, therein the whole NT story becomes invalid, imo.

Why did God make the same promise to Jacob? Because Jacob was in line as descendant of Abraham and where the promise was fulfilled because it extended no further than that name as "the one seed" of Isaac. If you're thinking about Ishmael, there was no need for a promise to him as he was already blessed in his own nation before Isaac was born. Therefore, the promise could not be divided as one had already received it, which left Isaac to carry the seed forward into Jacob called Israel. These people of Abraham would be blessed in all their families as nations. And as it reads, all of Abraham's children complied with requirement of circumcision so as to be known as people in the house name of Abraham, their father.

Circumcision was both sign and requirement for blessing. Those people who refused were "cut off" from being a people of God as the ritual itself symbolizes those uncircumcised as being "cut-off" from God. (Genesis 17:14) Some 450 years after the covenant made with Abraham, God made a new covenant with Israel in law of Moses. The law did not make void the covenant requirement of circumcision.

What did Paul try to do? (Read Ezekiel 44:7) . Concerning the abomination of Israel: "In that ye have brought into my sanctuary foreigners, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations."

My understanding is that Jesus could only fulfill the law by teaching it to his fellow Jews. He and the Pharisees, Sadducees and Elders debated the law. But still, what did this have to do with any Gentiles? Nothing that I can see.
The law of Jews was not ever given to ALL men. Transgression of law defined sin. Where there is no law of Israel to judge men, there is no sin against laws one does not have nor were ever given. Why then call yourself a sinner? :huh:

Was Jesus God? According to the OT and God speak, Jesus was not god, not equal to God, not a savior, mediator, or anything other than a Jewish rabbi who thought himself "as God in the flesh". Which made him guilty of blasphemy against the word of God. His sentence by Jewish law was in accordance to command of God in OT. Death. For no man is God, or equal to God. God is above all, even every Jew. And, God was never God to any Gentiles. Only Israel was claimed by God as his namesake, and "a people" of God.

sschlichter · 09-17-2008, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

When God says to Isaiah "Go to this people and say", God is sending Isiah in protest to the Jewish/Israel people, not to the Gentile world.

It makes no sense (to me at least), that Gentiles would have needed salvation as Gentiles were never given the laws and tradition of Jews by which life and death were predicated on. And, according to OT scripture in adherance to requirements of God, one law was standardized for the Jew first, with expected compliance of the Gentile convert also. Therein, God was said to be no respector of persons.

You are merly stating these things but not backing them up. Answer these questions please.

How was Abraham justified then in Gen 15:6 when it was before the law and before circumcision?

Why did Job know that he needed a redeemer? How did he know that his redeemer lived?

(Job 19:25) As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives,
and that as the last
he will stand upon the earth.

What did the Assyrians repent of when Jonah preached to them?

Why did the gentiles need a light in this passage?

(Isa 49:6) he says, "Is it too insignificant a task for you to be my servant,
to reestablish the tribes of Jacob,
and restore the remnant of Israel?
I will make you a light to the nations,
so you can bring my deliverance to the remote regions of the earth."

Why was God interested in what other nations thought of the Jewish laws?

(Deut 4:6) So be sure to do them, because this will testify of your wise understanding to the people who will learn of all these statutes and say, "Indeed, this great nation is a very wise people."

The Jews were separated, but for this purpose. Salvation is from the Jews and it has come.

Quote:

Pauls faith only doctrine in attempt to make Gentiles equal to Jews in the Kingdom of God evidenced his blasphemy in speaking against the word of God. But then, so did Jesus in making himself equal to God, therein the whole NT story becomes invalid, imo.

No, God revealed this to him from Scriptures. Paul was shown from Scripture that "The Righteous will live by faith? (Hab 2:4)

Quote:

Why did God make the same promise to Jacob? Because Jacob was in line as descendant of Abraham and where the promise was fulfilled because it extended no further than that name as "the one seed" of Isaac. If you're thinking about Ishmael, there was no need for a promise to him as he was already blessed in his own nation before Isaac was born. Therefore, the promise could not be divided as one had already received it, which left Isaac to carry the seed forward into Jacob called Israel. These people of Abraham would be blessed in all their families as nations. And as it reads, all of Abraham's children complied with requirement of circumcision so as to be known as people in the house name of Abraham, their father.

You ignored the rest of the question. Why was God continuing to make promises of an eternal kingdom to Judah and emphasizing his second born in a similar vein to Jacob and Esau, to David, to Solomon, to the remnant?

Quote:

Was Jesus God? According to the OT and God speak, Jesus was not god, not equal to God, not a savior, mediator, or anything other than a Jewish rabbi who thought himself "as God in the flesh". Which made him guilty of blasphemy against the word of God. His sentence by Jewish law was in accordance to command of God in OT. Death. For no man is God, or equal to God. God is above all, even every Jew. And, God was never God to any Gentiles. Only Israel was claimed by God as his namesake, and "a people" of God.

understandable. If Jesus was not God then you are correct. It is certainly not blasphemy for God to claim himself so.

Once more, storytime, Jesus taught that only God can reveal this to you.

~Steve

storytime · 09-18-2008, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

When God says to Isaiah "Go to this people and say", God is sending Isiah in protest to the Jewish/Israel people, not to the Gentile world.

It makes no sense (to me at least), that Gentiles would have needed salvation as Gentiles were never given the laws and tradition of Jews by which life and death were predicated on. And, according to OT scripture in adherance to requirements of God, one law was standardized for the Jew first, with expected compliance of the Gentile convert also. Therein, God was said to be no respector of persons.

You are merly stating these things but not backing them up. Answer these questions please.

How was Abraham justified then in Gen 15:6 when it was before the law and before circumcision?

Why did Job know that he needed a redeemer? How did he know that his redeemer lived?

(Job 19:25) As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives,
and that as the last
he will stand upon the earth.

What did the Assyrians repent of when Jonah preached to them?

Why did the gentiles need a light in this passage?

(Isa 49:6) he says, "Is it too insignificant a task for you to be my servant,
to reestablish the tribes of Jacob,
and restore the remnant of Israel?
I will make you a light to the nations,
so you can bring my deliverance to the remote regions of the earth."

Why was God interested in what other nations thought of the Jewish laws?

(Deut 4:6) So be sure to do them, because this will testify of your wise understanding to the people who will learn of all these statutes and say, "Indeed, this great nation is a very wise people."

The Jews were separated, but for this purpose. Salvation is from the Jews and it has come.

No, God revealed this to him from Scriptures. Paul was shown from Scripture that "The Righteous will live by faith? (Hab 2:4)

You ignored the rest of the question. Why was God continuing to make promises of an eternal kingdom to Judah and emphasizing his second born in a similar vein to Jacob and Esau, to David, to Solomon, to the remnant?

Quote:

Was Jesus God? According to the OT and God speak, Jesus was not god, not equal to God, not a savior, mediator, or anything other than a Jewish rabbi who thought himself "as God in the flesh". Which made him guilty of blasphemy against the word of God. His sentence by Jewish law was in accordance to command of God in OT. Death. For no man is God, or equal to God. God is above all, even every Jew. And, God was never God to any Gentiles. Only Israel was claimed by God as his namesake, and "a people" of God.

understandable. If Jesus was not God then you are correct. It is certainly not blasphemy for God to claim himself so.

Once more, storytime, Jesus taught that only God can reveal this to you.

~Steve

All the backup you need is in the OT story and reference I gave in Ezekiel. Abraham was justified as righteous through his faith. God made a covenant with Abraham and signified it with circumcision. There is no indication that this covenant was ever changed, not even by Paul who said circumcision was good in every way because the Jews had received the oracles of God. As to the Gentiles, who were not Jews, no circumcision was necessary, however, they as "foreigners", could not enter into the sanctuary of the Lord as members of his people unless they conformed to required protocol just as the Jews.

Before days of Abraham there was the man Job, along with others back to the first man Adam. (not the original man but the first man selected by the biblical god)

Did ancient people practice circumcision before Abraham? What about human sacrifice? Abraham seemed to be living in an age where both these rituals was an acceptable form of worship practice.

Paul understood that the righteous shall live by faith, but what he seemed not to understand is that his god had already laid down the law, so to speak. Who then was Paul to change circumcision and law for Gentiles who wanted to become equal to Jews? This is the reason for all the hostility, not the belief in a resurrection, for Paul said the Pharisees believed as he himself - in both angels and spirits. But there were certain of the Jews who sought to kill Paul, for they had thought he had brought uncircumcised Gentiles into the temple or temple area.

Job is a story of terrible suffering. He continues to hold to a belief in a supernatural god who is bargaining with his life in a sick game with the devil. The writer tries to smooth things over in a "God knows best" outcome.

What did the Assyrians repent of when Jonah preached to them? I don't know, but I would guess that the people of Ninevah were swearing they'd never go swimming in the ocean again.

The promise God made to the one seed of Isaac was fulfilled in Jacob. Esau was excluded, hated by God, the Edomites not considered as a people of God. Just as many other people in the old testament story were excluded and hated by the Hebrew thunder god.

You asked why were the Jews separated? Read Ezekiel 11:14-21

Judah[the Southern Kingdom] carried the torch for several reasons. Jerusalem was the city God had chosen to place his name. The city of David who took the city from the Jebusites, who were another people God did not claim as his own. God expected his people Israel to come up to Jerusalem to worship their king (not Jesus). God himself was king. The Temple of God was the throne of God at Jerusalem, not anywhere else. It was said that those of Israel who refused to come up to Jerusalem for feasts etc., would receive no rain. Even the house of Joseph in Egypt was expected to make its appearance at Jerusalem. And the Jews supposedly held the oracles of God and therein salvation was of the Jews as this is what the Jews believed. In other words, Jesus did not believe that salvation was of the Samaratans.

sschlichter · 09-18-2008, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

You are merly stating these things but not backing them up. Answer these questions please.

How was Abraham justified then in Gen 15:6 when it was before the law and before circumcision?

Why did Job know that he needed a redeemer? How did he know that his redeemer lived?

(Job 19:25) As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives,
and that as the last
he will stand upon the earth.

What did the Assyrians repent of when Jonah preached to them?

Why did the gentiles need a light in this passage?

(Isa 49:6) he says, "Is it too insignificant a task for you to be my servant,
to reestablish the tribes of Jacob,
and restore the remnant of Israel?
I will make you a light to the nations,
so you can bring my deliverance to the remote regions of the earth."

Why was God interested in what other nations thought of the Jewish laws?

(Deut 4:6) So be sure to do them, because this will testify of your wise understanding to the people who will learn of all these statutes and say, "Indeed, this great nation is a very wise people."

The Jews were separated, but for this purpose. Salvation is from the Jews and it has come.

No, God revealed this to him from Scriptures. Paul was shown from Scripture that "The Righteous will live by faith? (Hab 2:4)

You ignored the rest of the question. Why was God continuing to make promises of an eternal kingdom to Judah and emphasizing his second born in a similar vein to Jacob and Esau, to David, to Solomon, to the remnant?

understandable. If Jesus was not God then you are correct. It is certainly not blasphemy for God to claim himself so.

Once more, storytime, Jesus taught that only God can reveal this to you.

~Steve

All the backup you need is in the OT story and reference I gave in Ezekiel. Abraham was justified as righteous through his faith. God made a covenant with Abraham and signified it with circumcision. There is no indication that this covenant was ever changed, not even by Paul who said circumcision was good in every way because the Jews had received the oracles of God. As to the Gentiles, who were not Jews, no circumcision was necessary, however, they as "foreigners", could not enter into the sanctuary of the Lord as members of his people unless they conformed to required protocol just as the Jews.

Before days of Abraham there was the man Job, along with others back to the first man Adam. (not the original man but the first man selected by the biblical god)

Did ancient people practice circumcision before Abraham? What about human sacrifice? Abraham seemed to be living in an age where both these rituals was an acceptable form of worship practice.

Paul understood that the righteous shall live by faith, but what he seemed not to understand is that his god had already laid down the law, so to speak. Who then was Paul to change circumcision and law for Gentiles who wanted to become equal to Jews? This is the reason for all the hostility, not the belief in a resurrection, for Paul said the Pharisees believed as he himself - in both angels and spirits. But there were certain of the Jews who sought to kill Paul, for they had thought he had brought uncircumcised Gentiles into the temple or temple area.

Job is a story of terrible suffering. He continues to hold to a belief in a supernatural god who is bargaining with his life in a sick game with the devil. The writer tries to smooth things over in a "God knows best" outcome.

What did the Assyrians repent of when Jonah preached to them? I don't know, but I would guess that the people of Ninevah were swearing they'd never go swimming in the ocean again.

The promise God made to the one seed of Isaac was fulfilled in Jacob. Esau was excluded, hated by God, the Edomites not considered as a people of God. Just as many other people in the old testament story were excluded and hated by the Hebrew thunder god.

You asked why were the Jews separated? Read Ezekiel 11:14-21

Judah[the Southern Kingdom] carried the torch for several reasons. Jerusalem was the city God had chosen to place his name. The city of David who took the city from the Jebusites, who were another people God did not claim as his own. God expected his people Israel to come up to Jerusalem to worship their king (not Jesus). God himself was king. The Temple of God was the throne of God at Jerusalem, not anywhere else. It was said that those of Israel who refused to come up to Jerusalem for feasts etc., would receive no rain. Even the house of Joseph in Egypt was expected to make its appearance at Jerusalem. And the Jews supposedly held the oracles of God and therein salvation was of the Jews as this is what the Jews believed. In other words, Jesus did not believe that salvation was of the Samaratans.

God's concern for Assyrians

(Jon 4:11) Should I not be even more concerned about Nineveh, this enormous city? There are more than one hundred twenty thousand people in it who do not know right from wrong, as well as many animals!"

the Assyrians respond in faith (not circumcision)

(Jon 3:5) The people of Nineveh believed in God, and they declared a fast and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them.

Ezek 11:14-21 says that they will be separated. It is not contradicting what I said.

Question:
Did the Abrahamic covenant include the purpose of blessing all nations thru Abrahams promised son?

~Steve

storytime · 09-18-2008, 08:47 AM

"Did the Abrahamic covenant include the purpose of blessing all nations thru Abrahams promised son?"

If you speak of uncircumcised people as all nations, then no, these would not be blessed. Isaac was circumcised, Jacob was circumcised, Esau was circumcised. But the promise came to only one seed out of Isaac - Jacob called Israel. Why?

The blessing was set in those who complied with covenant requirement of circumcision. "I will bless them that bless thee.."
Those who would refuse to comply with the required covenant "sign" would be cut off and not considered as a people or blessed in Abraham's house name. "I will curse those who curse thee".

How do you view all nations of the earth? As the whole world of nations or as all the families in the earth who claim Abraham as their father?

sschlichter · 09-18-2008, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

"Did the Abrahamic covenant include the purpose of blessing all nations thru Abrahams promised son?"

If you speak of uncircumcised people as all nations, then no, these would not be blessed. Isaac was circumcised, Jacob was circumcised, Esau was circumcised. But the promise came to only one seed out of Isaac - Jacob called Israel. Why?

The blessing was set in those who complied with covenant requirement of circumcision. "I will bless them that bless thee.."
Those who would refuse to comply with the required covenant "sign" would be cut off and not considered as a people or blessed in Abraham's house name. "I will curse those who curse thee".

How do you view all nations of the earth? As the whole world of nations or as all the families in the earth who claim Abraham as their father?

What does it say?

(Gen 12:1)
Now the LORD said to Abram,
"Go out from your country, your relatives, and your father's household
to the land that I will show you.
(Gen 12:2) Then I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you,
and I will make your name great,
so that you will exemplify divine blessing.
(Gen 12:3) I will bless those who bless you,
but the one who treats you lightly I must curse,
and all the families of the earth will bless one another by your name."

all the families of the earth is differnet from all your descendants or all the nations that come from you.

this is illustrated here:

(Gen 18:18) After all, Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all the nations on the earth will pronounce blessings on one another using his name.

a powerful nation (from Abraham), all the nations of the earth means all nations on the planet earth, not the descendants of Abraham.

It was for this purpose that God separated Abraham's descendants.

~Steve

storytime · 09-18-2008, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

"Did the Abrahamic covenant include the purpose of blessing all nations thru Abrahams promised son?"

If you speak of uncircumcised people as all nations, then no, these would not be blessed. Isaac was circumcised, Jacob was circumcised, Esau was circumcised. But the promise came to only one seed out of Isaac - Jacob called Israel. Why?

The blessing was set in those who complied with covenant requirement of circumcision. "I will bless them that bless thee.."
Those who would refuse to comply with the required covenant "sign" would be cut off and not considered as a people or blessed in Abraham's house name. "I will curse those who curse thee".

How do you view all nations of the earth? As the whole world of nations or as all the families in the earth who claim Abraham as their father?

What does it say?

(Gen 12:1)
Now the LORD said to Abram,
"Go out from your country, your relatives, and your father's household
to the land that I will show you.
(Gen 12:2) Then I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you,
and I will make your name great,
so that you will exemplify divine blessing.
(Gen 12:3) I will bless those who bless you,
but the one who treats you lightly I must curse,
and all the families of the earth will bless one another by your name."

all the families of the earth is differnet from all your descendants or all the nations that come from you.

this is illustrated here:

(Gen 18:18) After all, Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all the nations on the earth will pronounce blessings on one another using his name.

a powerful nation (from Abraham), all the nations of the earth means all nations on the planet earth, not the descendants of Abraham.

It was for this purpose that God separated Abraham's descendants.

~Steve

Gen.12:3 "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

I think this shows the diverse tribes of people known to them in that age, and those of Abraham as being one grouping called families and independent from all other nations of the world. Not all people were covenanted to that group. All who were born in his house and those who were bought with his money reflects both heirs and confederates who joined to the house of Abraham.

sschlichter · 09-18-2008, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

What does it say?

(Gen 12:1)
Now the LORD said to Abram,
"Go out from your country, your relatives, and your father's household
to the land that I will show you.
(Gen 12:2) Then I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you,
and I will make your name great,
so that you will exemplify divine blessing.
(Gen 12:3) I will bless those who bless you,
but the one who treats you lightly I must curse,
and all the families of the earth will bless one another by your name."

all the families of the earth is differnet from all your descendants or all the nations that come from you.

this is illustrated here:

(Gen 18:18) After all, Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all the nations on the earth will pronounce blessings on one another using his name.

a powerful nation (from Abraham), all the nations of the earth means all nations on the planet earth, not the descendants of Abraham.

It was for this purpose that God separated Abraham's descendants.

~Steve

Gen.12:3 "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

I think this shows the diverse tribes of people known to them in that age, and those of Abraham as being one grouping called families and independent from all other nations of the world. Not all people were covenanted to that group. All who were born in his house and those who were bought with his money reflects both heirs and confederates who joined to the house of Abraham.

and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

you can think that but that is not what it says and that is not what is reflected in the rest of the OT. I have given you numerous examples of nations not coming from Abraham being of great concern to the God of Abraham. - even enemies of the people of Abraham. The first 11 chapters of Genesis ties the God of Abraham with the rest of creation and posits that the God of Abraham is the only God. All familes of the earth means just that. ALL the people on earth are going to be blessed thru God's covenant with Abraham.

Otherwise, it would say in thee I will bless your family, your descendants only. the Jews were the delivery mechanism, Emmanuel, 'God with us' is the blessing of the New Covenant.

~Steve

storytime · 09-18-2008, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Gen.12:3 "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

I think this shows the diverse tribes of people known to them in that age, and those of Abraham as being one grouping called families and independent from all other nations of the world. Not all people were covenanted to that group. All who were born in his house and those who were bought with his money reflects both heirs and confederates who joined to the house of Abraham.

and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

you can think that but that is not what it says and that is not what is reflected in the rest of the OT. I have given you numerous examples of nations not coming from Abraham being of great concern to the God of Abraham. - even enemies of the people of Abraham. The first 11 chapters of Genesis ties the God of Abraham with the rest of creation and posits that the God of Abraham is the only God. All familes of the earth means just that. ALL the people on earth are going to be blessed thru God's covenant with Abraham.

Otherwise, it would say in thee I will bless your family, your descendants only. the Jews were the delivery mechanism, Emmanuel, 'God with us' is the blessing of the New Covenant.

~Steve

And you can think what you think but I think you're mistaken.

Numerous examples of people not coming from Abraham were not in the family name of Abraham. Abraham was the father of many nations called families (tribal factions) in those days. Wandering Nomads would have joined Abraham and become recognized as a family of Abraham, provided they agreed to circumcision.

I do not find that God was concerned with people he called enemies, (those not circumcised). Except that He commanded they be killed without pity and sparing none.

Jethro and the Medianites were a people not covenanted in the house of Abraham, nor were they considered as "a people" of God in Jacob-Israel. But according to your assumption, God allowed these and thousands of other non-circumcised people to be called his namesake. And that is simply not the case as the story is explicit in who's who. Another example is the Egyptians whom God told Moses that "see, I have made a difference between the Egyptians and the Israelites." "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob". No other people allowed except through protocol of circumcision and law of Moses.

Have you grown acustomed to Christian teaching that, for the most part, never investigates the old testament story, and merely takes for granted that God is a universal god when in fact he is not? The god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob-Israel was a Hebrew construct, specifically constructed for Israel alone. Otherwise the OT story would have made it abundantly clear that the Hebrew God accepted all people no matter their manner of lifestyle. But the story remains in a God who demanded both circumcision and law.

The Christians created a new covenant in a new story but failed to rewrite the OT, evidently. How many years before lay people actually began to read the bible? I would say long after King James put his holy imprint on the cover. Heck, the majority of people today don't even take the time and effort to actually read the bible. Like you, they assume they have a god, and are "Israel now". However, just because they say so, doesn't make it so.

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09-18-2008, 08:47 AM	#36
storytime Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA Posts: 2,608	"Did the Abrahamic covenant include the purpose of blessing all nations thru Abrahams promised son?" If you speak of uncircumcised people as all nations, then no, these would not be blessed. Isaac was circumcised, Jacob was circumcised, Esau was circumcised. But the promise came to only one seed out of Isaac - Jacob called Israel. Why? The blessing was set in those who complied with covenant requirement of circumcision. "I will bless them that bless thee.." Those who would refuse to comply with the required covenant "sign" would be cut off and not considered as a people or blessed in Abraham's house name. "I will curse those who curse thee". How do you view all nations of the earth? As the whole world of nations or as all the families in the earth who claim Abraham as their father?

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